Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords, appointed to inquire into the present state of the Islands of New Zealand/Tuesday, 3 April 1838/John Flatt

by House of Lords

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Mr. John Flatt.

Mr. John Flatt is called in, and examined as follows:

When did you go first out to New Zealand?

I arrived in New Zealand in December 1834.

How long did you remain?

Till May 1837.

You went out in connexion with a Missionary Society?

Under the Church Missionary Society.

You went out originally with a view of superintending some Farm they had, did you not?

I was sent out by the Church Missionary Society to assist Mr. Richard Davies, the Superintendent, that he might be more at liberty to attend to his catechetical Duties and the Spiritual Concerns of the Natives.

What did that Farm consist of, and in whose Possession is it?

It is in Possession of Mr. Richard Davies, the Agent of the Church Missionary Society; it belongs to the Church Missionary Society.

You went out, as a Servant of that Society, to assist in the Management of that Farm?

Subject to Mr. Richard Davies.

Were you afterwards engaged in catechetical Duties?

Yes. So soon as I arrived Mr. Davies refused to accept of my Assistance, and consequently my Instructions were not followed; the Reverend Henry Williams told me that they could make a better Use of me, if I had no Objection to become a Catechist, and they sent me into the Interior.

You became employed under Mr. Henry Williams?

Mr. Henry Williams was the Chairman of the Committee; they passed a Resolution that I should proceed to Matamata.

You are not now in connexion with the Church Missionary Society.?

No, I am not.

When you quitted their Service did you receive any Testimonial from them?

Yes, I did. I have a Copy of it.

The same is delivered and read, and is as follows:

“Dear Sir,Church Missionary House, 28th October 1837.

“On Occasion of parting with you, the Committee desire me to state that they are well assured of your Piety and good Conduct, having received satisfactory Testimonials to that Effect from their Friends in New Zealand, of the Missionary Body. We earnestly hope that it will please God to guide you by His Grace in whatever Situation His Providence may allot to you.

“I remain, very truly, yours,

Wm. Jowett.”

“Mr. John Flatt.”

What is Mr. Jowett?

Clerical Secretary of the Church Missionary Society.

When you received those Instructions from the Committee in the Island did you proceed to Matamata?

I did, immediately.

Had you then an Opportunity of seeing a good deal of the Natives?

A great deal indeed.

What is your Opinion of the Climate of the Country?

It is a very healthy Climate; superior to England.

What is the Nature of the Soil?

A very prolific fine stiff Loam in one Part, and fine vegetable Mould in others.

What was your particular Occupation at Matamata?

I attended to catechetical Duties daily, and superintended the Native Work, the Formation of the new Settlement there, subject to the Reverend A. M. Brown, the Missionary there.

Had you a good many Attendants upon your Catechism?

Yes; sometimes 200, sometimes less, sometimes more, Natives. I attended at the School every Morning, and commenced at Day-light teaching them to read and write.

Do the Natives evince much Willingness to be taught?

They have a very great Desire to be taught to read and write.

You spoke of superintending native Labour; what was the Work?

Clearing of the Ground, sawing Timber, gardening, and fencing, &c.

For what Employers?

For the Church Missionary Society, subject to Mr. Brown the Missionary.

On what Terms were your Workmen paid; did they receive Wages?

We paid them monthly with Duck Trowsers, or Shirts, or Blankets, with Potatoes for their daily Food, and occasionally Flour.

Do you mean that you engaged Labourers for Hire in that Way?

The Reverend Mr. Brown engaged them, and I superintended them. We employed them by paying them monthly, and giving them so much in Clothes, or Tobacco, or Slates and Pencils, or Knives or Razors, and other small Articles.

Different Articles were given them in the Nature of Wages?

Yes; and Blankets, and so on.

Were you yourself present at any of those Engagements?

I agreed myself with Three Natives.

Did they appear thoroughly to understand what the Nature of the Agreement was you were making with them?

Perfectly so; they entered into my Service as they called it.

Did you find them when they had made the Agreement to work with you on certain Terms, generally speaking, ready to fulfil those Terms?

Yes.

To what Extent was that Settlement as you call it?

It was on a small Scale; it had just commenced; it was not commenced till 1834.

It was intended for a new Missionary Station?

Yes. Rush Houses were erected for the present, with the Intention to build permanent Houses at some future Day.

At what Distance was that from the Bay of Islands?

I should consider it 250 Miles; Fifty Miles up the River Thames.

Are you cognizant at all of the Manner in which that Land was acquired?

It was a very small Purchase made at first, but with a Promise that a larger Purchase should be made after we heard from England.

Had you any Communication with any of the Natives about making a larger Purchase?

Yes; after I learned the Language the Chiefs frequently told me there was a Promise to that Effect; that it had been postponed from Time to Time, and they wanted to know when it would be fulfilled; I heard that from Waharoa, head Chief.

Did he appear to desire that the Purchase should be fulfilled?

Yes, by all Means; he was anxious for the Payment.

Do you mean that he was anxious to part with more Land?

He would sell Land to any Extent; more than we were able to find Payment for. Six hundred Acres, I believe I am correct, was allotted, sanctioned by the Committee in England, according to the Public Letter.

That 600 Acres having been thus set apart for the Church Missionary Society, did the Natives respect that as Property, or were Encroachments made upon it?

It was never purchased; the Settlement has been given up since that.

Was there any Part purchased?

Only a small Part. What was the Extent?

It was very small.

Did the Natives encroach upon that Part which was purchased?

Not at all. We suffered a Native of the Name of Ngakuku to plant upon it, to plant a Part with Kumara Potatoes (Potatoes termed sweet by Europeans), and Maize; he was employed on the Station as well.

When you had made the Agreement with the native Servants to work for you, how many Hours work did they perform in a Day?

They worked Eight Hours a Day.

Receiving from you Potatoes for Food and some little Articles in the Nature of Wages?

Yes. When we paid them monthly, they received nothing except their Food in the Week, except Tobacco and Pipes.

How many Englishmen were there at Matamata at the Time you were in the Country?

The Reverend A. N. Brown, Mrs. Brown, Mr. and Mrs. Morgan, myself, Mr. Clementson, and James Farrow, making Seven.

During the Time you were there, being a small Body, were you at all injured or annoyed by the Natives?

I received no personal Injury, but I was stripped once of every thing; I was robbed.

At what Period of your Residence was that?

The 19th of October 1836.

How did that occur?

Previous to that, Waharoa the Chief took a large Party over to Rotorua, where there is a large Lake; but it was on account of a Relation of his having been killed at that Lake in consequence of a Circumstance which occurred in that Place, which was Adultery; they could not secure the Adulterer, and they took the nearest Relation to him, which happened to be a distant Relation of the head Chief of Matamata (Waharoa). Waharoa took a large Party over; he went off, it is said , with the Intention to go to this Lake, but finding he was not sufficiently strong he went to Makatu on the Seacoast instead of going to the Lake; they altered their Minds and went to the Bay of Plenty. They arrived at Makatu the Beginning of 1836, and cut off this small Tribe, Thirty in Number, for Payment of this single Offence; and they stripped Mr. Tapstall, the Agent for some Gentlemen in Sydney,—I think Messrs. Jones,—who was employed in purchasing Flax; he had just received a large Quantity of Goods from Sydney, consisting of Blankets, Powder, Guns, Axes, Flour, Bullets, Razors, Knives, and various other Articles, amounting altogether to 1,500l. After this Party had destroyed, that is to say killed, all the fighting Men, the whole Tribe at Makatu, they remained quiet for that Day. They stripped Mr. Tapstall on the following Day; then they returned home to Matamata, where I was living. I saw them upon their Return. They then prepared for an Attack from Rotorua, which was connected with the Party which they had just destroyed. Nothing occurred for some few Days, until they heard that the Party at Rotorua had been to the Tuma, a native Fortification on the Seacoast, and cut off Sixty Natives, who were connected with the Party of Waharoa, and eat that Part of their Bodies which is their native Custom to eat; it is native Custom to eat their Enemies killed in Battle, and only their Enemies. They attacked them at Break of Day, in the Morning; 200 made their Attack in Front of the Fortification, and 400 more remained at some little Distance; as soon as the 200 drew the Attention of the Natives to the front Part of the Fortification the others rushed in immediately upon them, and killed all that could not make their Escape. Waharoa, in return, got up a large Party at Waikata, including his own, and proceeded to the Lake at Rotorua, and he remained there Two Days before he could make the Attack. Then Waharoa planned a Scheme by fixing 100 Natives on each Side of a long Hill, with a Footpath upon the Ridge. Waharoa fixed them, with their Guns loaded, and then sent a Challenge to the Fortification outside of the Lake. They had another Fortification on the Island to retire to in case they were beaten. Waharoa sent a small Party of Natives to go and fire into the Fortification, to approach up as near as they could with Safety, and to retreat immediately back to them. Accordingly his Men made the Attack, and fired into the Fortification; the Natives came running out immediately, not aware of the Men lying in ambush; and as soon as they came in a Line with those 200 Men they were surprised to find 200 Guns fired at them immediately; unconscious from what Quarter it had come they retreated back to the Fortification; Waharoa and the Remainder of his Party, being within a short Distance, followed the Enemy close up, and those that were wounded and could not fly they killed with their Axes; they killed Thirty Natives upon that Occasion. After eating some Parts, according to their then Custom, and feasting a Day and a Half, they returned home to Matamata; they expected then an Attack immediately at Matamata. The Missionaries, finding that something serious was likely to occur at Matamata, called a Committee, and a Resolution was passed that the Station should be given up altogether; and I received Orders to take the Cattle over to Tauranga on the Seacoast. I took the Cattle over on the 11th of October 1836 with Two Horses; I returned back the following Week to take back the young Horse, the Journey being too long for One Day, it being in fact a Two Days Journey. We took up our Abode at the Wairere (or Waterfall) for the Night. On the 19th at Daylight in the Morning some native Dogs began to bark, and the Natives were alarmed and filed into the Woods immediately, leaving me alone in the Tent. The Natives came up around me and I found I was quite in their Hands; but I felt more anxious about the Natives, considering myself quite safe except my Property, which I was well aware would go as a Payment for Mr. Tapstall's Loss. This is quite straight according to native Custom. As soon as the Natives found that the Natives connected with me had fled they took every thing I happened to have with me; they took £26 Worth of Things, which the Church Missionary Committee have paid me for.

They plundered you?

Yes.

Did they strip you naked?

I was naked in Bed; they took away all my Bedding and my Clothes; they left me the Horse to ride.

Was the Station in consequence given up altogether?

It was given up the Week before, and was not resumed when I last heard, a Twelvemonth ago, and I believe it was not likely to be from the Account I heard from the Missionaries.

Are you enabled to know at all what has become of the Land upon which the Works were going on?

It remains, as it was, the Property of the Church Missionary Society.

In what Way has it been dealt with since this Transaction?

We have simply left it as it was before, the Two Native or Rush Houses standing, having taken away all the Property that was moveable; the Doors and Windows, and so on.

It has not been occupied for the Benefit of the Missionary Society since?

No.

You remained in the Island for some Time after that?

I did, until the 7th of May.

Where were you stationed?

I staid at Tauranga on the Seacoast till the End of February 1837.

Did you, during your stay in the Island, acquire any Knowledge of the Language?

Yes; so that I could converse freely with the Natives on many Subjects.

Have you conversed with the Natives, at different Times, relative to the Arrival of Settlers there?

Frequently.

What did you collect to be their Opinions or their Wishes about that?

They wished to have some Protection.

What did they mean by Protection?

They seemed to feel, as they stated to me, that if they were left to themselves they would by their own Countrymen soon be dead.

Do you mean that they should destroy each other?

Yes; they had no Safety of their Lives; they had, as far as we were able to protect them, fled to us; when we receive them into our Employ the Natives look upon them as devoted to us, and that makes them sacred; they think that if they touch them they are touching us.

Were you present and privy to any Purchases of Land?

Yes; I was present at one in January 1836.

By whom was that Purchase made?

By Mr. William Fairburn, Catechist of the Church Missionary Society.

Was that to a large Extent?

It was a Purchase very large; it is termed, by some of the Europeans in New Zealand, a whole County; it was purchased for his Children.

In what Way was that conducted; who were present of the Natives?

Many Chiefs were present, and sanctioned it; there were some Natives that did not sanction it, stating, that it had been purchased by Europeans before, or some Gentlemen in England; and they said it was not straight that Mr. Fairburn should buy it.

That it was not straight that it should be sold a Second Time?

Yes; they considered it not right.

Did any Instrument or Document pass on that Occasion?

Yes; there were, I think, Two Sheets of Foolscap Paper; One I think was English and the other was Native; it was drawn up in English and Native, on Foolscap Paper.

Was that signed by any Persons?

It was signed by the Reverend Henry Williams, Mr. Fairburn, myself, and Mr. James Preece, a Catechist of the Church Missionary Society.

You signed as Witnesses?

Yes.

Was it signed by the Chiefs?

Yes, by those who could write, and the others made a Mark.

Was it such an Instrument that you were quite satisfied it was a Transaction fair and secure?

Quite so; they appeared anxious that it should commence immediately to be cultivated by employing their Party to cultivate it.

Are you prepared to say that you are satisfied, from what passed upon that Occasion, that they looked to that Land being cultivated by the Purchaser through native Workmen?

Yes; that was stated by them, that it was to be cultivated in Agriculture for Mr. William Fairburn's Children.

Was much of the Land in a State of Cultivation?

Not a Yard of it. After this Purchase Mr. Hamlin, Mr. Chapman , Mr. Brown, Mr. Preece, and Mr. Fairburn assembled at Tamaka and held a Committee. I was present, but not one of the Committee. There was a Resolution passed, that Mr. Fairburn should commence cultivating his Land by settling upon it; taking his Natives connected with him from the former Settlement, Puriri, which was given up. It was expected that he would remove, immediately after we left, from Puriri to Tamaka. We had Materials on board the Columbine, the Society's Schooner, to commence building—Wood, and so on. As we were lying there several Days, I went ashore on this Purchase, and examined it, and found it to be a very rich Soil, close to a fine Bay, where there is Room for almost any Number of Ships to anchor, with deep Water, Three Fathoms, close in. It is not less than Twenty-five Miles long in its greatest Length; it is supposed to be Thirty Miles by some Persons in New Zealand.

What has been done with that Land?

I left shortly afterwards, on a Visit to England, for the Purpose of being married, and I cannot say what has been done since. I came to the Bay of Islands and remained there from February to May.

Do you know any thing of Land purchased by a Mr. Baker?

Mr. Shepherd pointed out a large Purchase at Wangaroa.

Was Mr. Baker a Missionary?

He was a Catechist of the Church Missionary Society. In April 1835 I accompanied Mr. Shepherd to Wangaroa, and was Five Days with him, sleeping at the native Fortifications at Night.

Has Mr. James Davis, a Catechist, purchased Land?

Yes; adjoining the Society's Farm at Waernati.

Has Mr. Clark purchased a Tract?

Yes; a large Tract on the Western Side of the Society's Farm.

Has Mr. Kemp?

He has purchased Land at Wangaroa and at Kerikeri.

Has Mr. King purchased any?

Mr. King has made a small Purchase.

Do you know yourself the Manner in which any of these Purchases were made?

They were purchased previous to my Arrival; they had commenced purchasing more than Six Years ago.

Were the Lands they had so purchased marked out and cultivated by them?

The Rev. Henry Williams commenced first cultivating a large Tract he purchased at Titirianga; I have rode over it, and I consider it Seven Square Miles.

Do you know how any of those Purchases were made, except in the Instance you have stated?

I was present at only one.

During the Time you were there, what do you consider the Extent of the European Population; did it increase or diminish while you were there?

The Families of the Missionaries increased rapidly; there were upwards of 100 Children before I left.

How was the other Population?

There were very few of the other Europeans married, except Mr. Busby, Captain Clendon, Mr. Mair, Mr. Greenway, and some few others, whose Names I do not know.

What do you consider to be the Number of Europeans in the Island when you were there?

I consider there were 500 Convicts and runaway Sailors on the Seacoast; not in the Interior.

In what Sort of Way do they live?

They lead a most reckless Life, by keeping Grog Shops, selling spirituous Liquors, both to Europeans and Natives; living with the Native Females in a most discreditable Way, so that the Natives have told me, in their own Language, to teach my own Countrymen first before I taught them. They have called us a Nation of Drunkards, or mad with Drink; the Form of the Word imports Madness. This arose from their seeing a Majority of Europeans of that Stamp in New Zealand.

Is there much of Violence and Theft among the European Population?

They frequently fell out; while I was at the Bay there were Two Murders.

And no Punishment for them?

No; Mr. Busby had not the Power.

Were you able at all during the Three Years you were there, knowing the different Purchasers of Land, to form any Idea as to any fixed or settled Rate of Value for Land that the Chiefs entertained amongst themselves?

The general Rule is, that they say it is our Thoughts, not theirs; the Word is, “It is your Thoughts, not mine;" that is, “What will you give me?” The Europeans fix the Price generally under what they really intend to give, and add the other in afterwards as a Reward or free Gift; they generally throw in some extra Price, such as Scissors and Tobacco and Pipes, and so on; Razors and Shaving Boxes sometimes.

When a Chief sells any Land does he keep the whole Price himself, or are there others entitled to a Part?

It is distributed all round; every Chief takes his Share, and the head Chief seldom takes more than a petty Chief, unless it is given him by the Purchaser; then it is considered as a Present from the Gentleman who bought the Land.

Have you an Opportunity of knowing whether the Chiefs generally were desirous of parting with their Land, or whether they did it with Reluctance?

They were very anxious to sell it. I had Land offered to me, but I had no Payment to give them, neither did I want any.

In taking the Surface of the Island, as compared with the Population, is there a great deal of Land more than the present Population is likely to cultivate?

Yes, a very great deal indeed; I have passed over Fifty Miles of Country with not an Acre cultivated, fine rich Soil, from Puriri to Matamata by Land, crossing the River Thames twice.

When an Advance was made for the Sale of Land, do you know any thing of the Manner in which that Land was appropriated to the Purchaser; was there any Ceremony or Form adopted by the Natives?

There is no Form, no Taboo, to Europeans; that is confined to the Natives; it becomes British Property and they look upon it as such; they may hold it as a Taboo so far to Europeans for a short Time, during a short Absence from the Country, but if the Europeans were to leave it for several Years, and not to cultivate it, I would not be bound to say they would not sell it to a Purchaser after a few Years; they would look upon the former Purchaser as dead.

Supposing a Purchaser to take possession and cultivate the Land, do you consider that the Native feels that he is giving up all Title to that Land?

He is looking forward to become a Gentleman; he first receives Payment, and then he is employed upon the Land; consequently he is richer, he considers, than he ever would be without that; they get a Payment for the Land and another for working upon it, they say.

Do you mean to say that they consider that an Advantage greater than the Possession of the Land in its unimproved State?

Yes; they look upon it as useless at present, for they can appropriate it to no Purpose whatever; they say they have no Spades or Ploughs, and what should they cultivate it for if they had, for they have Plenty of Food; this is the Conversation of the Natives to me.

Did you find the Natives generally intelligent?

Very intelligent; not at all inferior in point of Intellect to Europeans.

Are you aware of any Instance in which Land has been bought by Europeans from the Natives and afterwards sold again by the Europeans?

I do not recollect an Instance at present. The Natives have wanted to take it back again.

Was that the native Chief who sold it?

No; the Son, because it was not taken possession of. Mr. Shepherd bought an Island in the Bay of Islands, of a Chief at the Bay; a European from New South Wales arrived, and offered to give Four Times as much, after this Land had lain dormant a considerable Time; this Land had been purchased a considerable Time before this European arrived. The young Chief took part of the Payment, as much as he had received for it, to Mr. James Shepherd the Catechist, and laid the Payment down at his Door, which consisted of Blankets, Axes, and some Tobacco, and a few other Trifles.

Mr. Shepherd had not occupied the Land?

He had merely been and looked at it.. He told the young Chief that it belonged to him, and nobody else could have it; but the young Chief told him if he did not occupy it himself somebody else should do it.

What was the Result?

Mr. Shepherd objected to take back the Payment, stating that, according to European Purchase, it was his, and he should not take the Purchase Articles back again. The Chief said he should; he, Mr. Shepherd, said that was not according to the European Custom, nor theirs, to take it back after it had been parted with. The Chief said he had not given the Value for it, or why did the other give him Four Times as much; and he said if he did not take it back he would take off his Head, but that was only a Threat; then he, the young Chief,

went away, and left the Price, and he has since sold the Land for Four Times as much.

Did Mr. Shepherd give it up?

Yes; he was obliged to do it, or something serious might have occurred.

Was that a large Island?

No, not a large Island.

Is it 100 Acres?

Not so much, I should think; it is a good-sized Island, sufficient to make a Garden and Pasture.

Do you recollect any Instance in which the Land had been occupied and cultivated by the Purchaser in which the Natives reclaimed it?

No; I know another Instance where a Native began to cultivate with the Intention to take it back, provided they were permitted. It is the native Custom to go and fix on any Part of their Country, and plant it; if they keep it that Year it belongs to them ever after; it becomes their Property.

Do you mean that a Native endeavoured to resume a Spot which had been previously sold to a Native?

No, to an European.

But not occupied by him?

No; he said his Blankets were worn out, and his Payment gone, and he should take his Land back again, as it was not occupied.

What was the Result of that?

It was objected to; and James Busby, Esquire, was acquainted with it, and he sent for the Chiefs to hold a Committee with him as it was called, and the Committee assembled. I was present on the Occasion.

Was it quietly discussed?

Yes. I saw the Chief, Maripu; he appeared angry, but it was a mere Form; he was not really angry; he asked Mr. Busby what he would do, whether he would fight; he told him no, he had a way of fighting by which he could succeed; he asked him in what Way; and he said as soon as a Man of War came in, he should send a Letter on board, and they should bring it up even with his Fortification; the Captain of the Ship would give Orders to fire, and if he was there he would be killed. After some little Conversation similar to that the Chief agreed, if they would give him a good Feast of Flour and Sugar mixed up with Water, and boiled, he would take no further Notice of it, and leave the Purchase to remain.

He let the Purchaser have the Land again?

Yes; that belonged to Mr. William Fairburn.

Before the Natives went to cultivate the Land, how long had Mr. Fairburn had it without proceeding to cultivate it?

Several Years. I understood it was a long while before I arrived that he bought it.

In the case where there was an Instrument in English and in the native Language, did the Chief keep either of the Parts after the Purchase was completed?

I am not sure of that; the Missionaries had one. I did not see the Document given to the Natives. They might have one.

But you saw them sign it?

Yes, I did; both the native and the English one. I was capable then of reading both myself. That is the usual Plan of selling Land. They consider it quite European Property after that; but they wish to have it cultivated, and to employ their Party.

Are you to be understood that the Native, after having made an Agreement for selling Land, considers that he has absolutely parted with it altogether, if the Purchaser proceeds to cultivate it?

Yes. He considers that it is of more Use to him then than it was before. He is well aware that he cannot cultivate it himself.

If the Purchaser does not proceed fairly to cultivate it, then he thinks he has a Right to sell it again?

Yes. I have been informed, not only by Natives but Europeans, that the Land at Tamaka had been purchased several years before; but the Purchaser not having used the Land, the Party considered him or them as dead.

In the Case of the Son of the Chief who sold Land wishing to sell it again, he brought back the Price his Father had received, and repaid it to the original Purchaser?

Yes; that was on a small Scale; they would not be able to bring a large Payment; a small Island would be sold by the Chief only, others not uniting with him.

There is before the Committee a Petition to His late Majesty from the British Settlers, signed by many Persons connected with the Church Missionary Settlement, among others; do you know the Date of that?

I signed it myself in November 1836; the Reverend Henry Williams brought it to me.

Were the Men employed at the Settlement you were originally at Slaves or Freemen?

Some of them had been Slaves, and some were Freemen.

Did you receive them from the Chiefs, or hire them themselves?

The Rev. Mr. Brown hired them, except Two or Three of the Natives. Those I hired I took from their Friends. I was to give them a Pair of Trowsers or a Sailor's Shirt every Month, and to board them, and to give them a few other small Payments, such as Tobacco Pipes, and a few other Things, if I felt so disposed.

There was not a Price paid to the Person from whom you hired him, but to the Individual?

No.

To whom was the Payment at the End of the Month made?

To the Individual who worked.

Did you give any Remuneration to the Person from whom you hired him?

No; I went and engaged him myself, and a very few Words were sufficient; Five Minutes was quite sufficient. He will consider himself engaged, and come to work the next Morning.

How many Men did you employ?

Two or Three of my own, and Sixteen of the Rev. Mr. Brown.

How many of those were Slaves?

I think there was only One Slave.

Did you pay that Slave the same as the Freeman?

He left shortly after my Arrival ; he had been purchased some Time previous; and being not satisfied with being detained so long, he ran away without giving any Reason.

Are the Slaves Persons taken in War?

Yes; and they are purchased by Means of Blankets.

You permitted your Labourers to plant?

Yes; we permitted them to plant on the Ground.

Did they consider that they had any Right on the Soil in consequence of being so permitted to plant?

They were employed in the Settlement; we considered them as belonging to us. It was a Promise from us that they should have the Produce of the Work they worked over Hours; simply as a Labourer would do in England.

Did they consider that planting there gave them any Right over the Soil?

Not at all.

They would have considered it so, but for the Bargain which they had made with you, probably?

If a Stranger came and planted they would consider that quite an Insult upon the Purchaser when we were present on the Spot.

Did any of the White Men take a Part in the Skirmishes which took place?

Not one, while I was there.

Why did the Tribe friendly to you strip a White Man, which led to Retaliation in your Case?

It was the great Temptation for the Property; it was a Retaliation in destroying the Natives at that Time; it is the Custom of the Natives, in all Cases of an Injury received by their Countrymen, to retaliate, even though the Individual who suffers was not concerned in it. They sent Mr. Tapstall away in his Boat.

Do you consider that a Chief when he sells his Land thinks he is selling it for ever, or only his Life Interest?

That he sells it for ever.

Would he be disappointed afterwards if Iron was found on that Land?

Not at all; not if Gold was found.

Do not they consider Iron more valuable than Gold?

They do not consider Iron so highly valuable now as formerly, because they have had Payments from the Missionaries and others in Axes and Spades and so on for many Years.

There is no Iron Ore worked in the Island?

No, not any.

Can you tell what is the Amount of Land that has been purchased by Europeans, not only residing there but residing in this Country?

I cannot say how much is purchased by Gentlemen residing in this Country; no more than what Mr. Fairburn had purchased. I am informed that had been previously purchased.

Have not the New Zealand Association, as it is called, made extensive Purchases of Land?

Not any, unless it was the Purchase I have alluded to. It was purchased in the Year 1825, or thereabouts.

Do you know any Company in this Country now possessed of any Land in New Zealand?

I do not know of any Company in existence that possesses any Property in New Zealand.

Do you know of any Company that has purchased Land in that Country?

I simply know from the native Report and Conversations with Europeans that Tamaka had been purchased by Europeans, or by some Company.

That is sold again?

Yes; it was bought by Mr. Fairburn.

Do you conceive, if he does not proceed immediately to plant that Tract of Country, the Chief will sell it again, if he is tempted to do so?

Not while he remains; but if he came to England and left it in that State it is probable it would be sold again.

Are the Chiefs hereditary?

Yes.

Is it always the eldest Son who succeeds?

Not always; it depends very much upon whether it was the head Wife's Son. He may have an elder Son by a Slave Wife, who would not rank with the Son of a head Wife.

As it is the Custom that the Son should succeed the Father, would they not, if they knew this Gentleman had a Son, think he had a Title to the Land?

Yes, if the Purchaser took Possession of it, and remained upon the Spot; if he left it wholly, as Tamaka was left, they would probably sell it again, and the whole Tribe share in the Payment.

Can you state in round Numbers the Amount of Acres purchased in that Sale?

It appeared to me to be quite a County; an immense large Tract.

Is it 2,000 or 3,000 Acres?

More than that.

What was given for it?

Large Quantities of Blankets; there were Two small Cart Loads of Blankets; there was a large Pile of them as they were thrown in a Heap. There were also Axes, Adzes, Razors, Scissors, and Knives, Tobacco and Pipes, and many other Things.

What did they want Razors for?

To shave themselves with.

Do you suppose that it cost the Individual who gave those Things 100l. to purchase this Estate?

I should think not more than 150l.

To purchase nearly what you would call a County?

Yes.

Do you think that if the Natives hereafter should find that was a very small Sum for the Purchase of that Land, they would be satisfied?

I have no Reason to believe but that they would be perfectly satisfied; they seem surprised to think that they should have so large a Payment.

The Land, in the State in which it was sold, did not produce the Value of 100l, to the Seller?

It produced nothing except Fern and Wood; it is in part a Timber District.

A Timber District is valuable?

Yes; and that was what occasioned the Payment to be so great, or they would not have had more than 80l. Worth of Property.

The Europeans barter for Wood; they do not pay them in Money?

There is a Gentleman near Tamaka who has been employed in sending Wood to England; he has Natives and Europeans employed by him to cut the Timber down. The Natives wish the Europeans to employ them as well as Europeans. I believe they would not suffer Europeans to go and cut down Wood, and bring it away, without employing them.

Do you think it would be very popular with the Natives in that Country if People were to purchase 10,000 Acres of them, and then cultivate that by Europeans?

I believe it would be the Means of breeding Discontents between the Natives and Europeans; they would consider that it was not right that Europeans should be employed in preference to them; but if they were

included you might employ as many Europeans as you pleased.

Is it not a native Feeling, in selling their Land, that they shall get Employment from the European?

It is that they will become Gentlemen, to use their own Word, in selling it and in working it; that is the Term many of the young Chiefs have used to me.

Can you speak too strongly of the State of Society in the Bay of Islands?

I consider that it is impossible for it to be in a worse State than it is.

There is every Sort of Vice?

Every Sort of Vice known to Europeans is prevalent there, I am told.

Have not those Natives who have had much Intercourse with that part of the Country been very much demoralized by Association with those People?

The Natives in the Interior I consider far superior in point of Morals to those in the Bay of Islands.

Were the Natives in the Interior many of them Christians?

Very few of them were Christians.

Still you consider them better Men than those who had been associating with the Europeans in the Bay?

Decidedly. I took Two or Three Natives from a native Village in the Interior, who had not associated with bad Europeans, I mean such as are found on the Sea Coast, who appeared perfectly at home with us, and they appeared far less wild than many of those at the Bay of Islands.

Did they conduct themselves steadily?

Yes.

Are there much spirituous Liquors sold in the Interior of the Country?

Not any, except to a few Europeans who may reside among them for the Purchase of their Flax; neither are they in the habit of taking any; they drink only Water.

That is not the Case in the Bay of Islands?

No.

The Natives, particularly the Chiefs, are found in a State of Intoxication, I have been informed?

They are frequently drinking, but I believe it takes more to intoxicate them than Europeans, from what Cause I do not know. A Chief at Kororerike has been known to take Half a Pint of spirituous Liquors before Breakfast; it may have been adulterated with Water, perhaps.

The English Traders probably adulterate the spirituous Liquors?

Yes. If the whole Country were to get into the habit of taking ardent Spirits to a large Extent the Consequences might be serious.

Do you think that in selling their Land they have the slightest Idea of the Probability of this Country taking the Sovereignty of their Island?

They do not think any thing of Sovereignty. I have no Reason to think that they take that View of it. Their simple View is, that their Land may be cultivated, and that they may be benefited by that. At present they cultivate no more than is necessary for their daily Food, except cultivating Potatoes round the Bay of Islands and other Parts for the Shipping; this is by Slaves.

Do you think that if it was put to a New Zealand Chief, that it was the Intention of this Country to make Laws which should coerce him, he would like the Plan?

Some few of the head Chiefs, the elder Chiefs, who have been at War many Years, perhaps might state their Objections to it; but the young Men, I am confident, would be anxious for it; they see the Propriety of it; they say there would be no Fear of a Party coming and falling upon them then, and that unless something is done they would be all dead; this has been stated to them by all the Missionary Body, that such a Thing will be the Consequence of their going on as they are doing, viz. be all dead.

You showed them very properly the Evils of War?

Yes; and that if it goes on, and one Half of the Island was to rise up against the other, they would be exterminated.

Did you ever explain to the People, that quite as efficient a Way of destroying them was their being addicted to the Habits of Debauchery and Intemperance?

I never stated that as a Reason of their being destroyed.

If they go on in the Bay of Islands as they do now, will not that cause the Extermination of the Natives before long?

Yes; including their Wars. I believe some of their Wars have originated with spirituous Liquors in the Bay of Islands. When they set about revenging an Injury there is no knowing where they will stop.

Do you think they would like any Laws that would prevent their getting intoxicated?

The Natives are not inclined, generally, to get intoxicated, except those employed in supplying the Ships with Articles, and those Females who have been degraded by this Intercourse. I am told by the Natives, they, the Females, are as apt to get tipsy as the Men on board.

Do they continue the Practice of eating any of their Prisoners?

Yes.

Do they carry off many Women and Children, and make Slaves of them?

Yes; at Makatu they took all the young Men, Women, and Children as Slaves. The head Chiefs were all killed; they are immediately killed.

The Country then becomes the Property of the Chief which is so taken?

Not immediately. It remains to be proved which is the strongest Party; if he can exterminate the whole Party it becomes his; but while there is any of the Party remaining they may probably encourage others to fight with them, and meet the other on fair Grounds; so that they do not take Posesssion of it till that is seen.

You were speaking of Fortresses; of what Sort are they?

Fortifications roughly constructed of Planks of Wood or small Trees sawn off and driven into the Ground, and single Bars of Wood from Post to Post.

Are they permanent or Field Fortifications?

They are made permanent, but not kept in repair unless in War-time.

They appear to have a good deal of Military Knowledge, considering their Circumstances?

Yes; they are very anxious to hear about Military Affairs. Waharoa is considered to be the best Military Chief in the Waikata District by the Natives; he is considered so courageous.

Do the great Majority of those Persons fight with Muskets?

Yes, with Muskets, with the Axes at their Side. If there is an Occasion for it they throw down the Musket and fight with the Axe.

When they came to you did they suppose that you had been concerned with the Persons who had injured them?

No. When they came up they asked whether I was Tapstall, their European in the Tent. I answered in the Negative; and they began to strip me immediately. I conversed with them. They asked whether I was not of Matamata. I said I was. They asked me whether it was not straight, as our Party had stripped their European, that they should strip me; and I said it was according to their Custom.

You did not resist?

No.

Is that an ordinary Expression, ‟Whether it is straight”?

Yes. There is only One Word for taking of Property away in Native, which means stripping.

Can you account for their not taking your Horse?

No. I think they had never seen a Horse before. Some of them I am sure had not, from their Remarks.

Had you the Means, in connexion with the Settlement, of seeing the Chiefs, and ascertaining their Ideas with respect to Religion?

Some of them I had.

What were your Impressions?

I think we are still in a great degree ignorant of the real Superstition of the New Zealanders, not having enquired sufficiently into it. This is the Opinion of several of the Missionary Body. I think that much hereafter will be brought before Europeans which we are quite ignorant of at present.

Did they object to speak upon the Subject of Religion; did they ever allude to any of their Hopes or Fears before they had seen you?

They continually did so; speaking about the native God and the native Religion. The native God they say resides in the Woods.

Do they worship Idols?

Not any Idols.

Did you find them willing to receive religious Instruction?

They appeared very anxious to attend; but I found that confined chiefly to those who receive Payment from the Land, or those connected with the Stations. Waharoa would not attend, and the greater Part of his Tribe did not (when I was at Matamata), but his Two Sons did.

Was there any Jealousy on the Part of the Chiefs who did not attend, to prevent those who would attend?

I recollect Waharoa saying, that we should steal all his Men from him, and that he should be beaten when another Fight came on.

That was because you preached against War?

Yes.

Did you find the native Children easy to be taught?

Very easy; very interesting; equal to European Children in point of Intellect.

Had you any Opportunity, while you were there, of seeing any Persons that had been taught by the early Missionaries who went to that Country?

Yes; I have heard them preach in the native Language. I have taken one out with me after reading the Form of Prayer which is translated, and a Chapter. The Native stood up, and addressed them from the 7th Chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel.

Did the Men who were taught by the Church Missionaries behave as Christians ought to do?

Yes; but there are but few of them.

The Question refers to those who might have had the Elements of Truth originally instilled into their Minds; did it appear that they had lost the Impression, or that in after Life their Morals were correct, and they were conducting themselves in an orderly Manner?

I consider that they walk as well as we can expect them; according to native Custom, they walk consistently with it, so far that they will not go to War; they have come to that Determination, that they will stand in their own Defence; but they will not fight unless they are attacked.

Do they give up Canibalism?

They would of course, if they did not fight.

Do you know any Instance of any one of those Men converted to Christianity having been attacked and killing his Adversary?

I have known those we have thought well of that have turned again to go and fight, and have joined in Cannibalism. This very Slave I allude to, of the Reverend Mr. Brown, returned to his former Habits. We had thought better of him; and it remains to be proved how far the Remainder may stand their Ground.

Upon the whole, are you not of opinion that the Labours of the Missionaries have been successful as far as might be expected?

They have been successful; but I think a greater Effect might be given to them if their Minds were relieved from those secular Things which press so heavily upon them on behalf of their Children.

If they could devote their whole Lives to the Service of Christianity, instead of trying to better the Condition of their own Children?

Yes. At present they are cultivating their Land. To use the Words of the Reverend Henry Williams, they are just holding on for their Children, seeing no other Prospect for their Children than the Cultivation of those Lands. They cannot send them home to England;—that would be too expensive;—New South Wales would not be desirable for them; and this is their only Chance.

Are there any other Missionaries in any of the Islands except the Church Missionaries?

There are some Wesleyans at Hukianga.

Are there any Roman Catholics?

Not to my Knowledge.

Has it been the Practice of all the Missionaries there to purchase Land?

Not all; only those having large Families.

Do you think that an Establishment under the Protection of this Country, a Colony in New Zealand, would be advisable?

Not upon the Plan of the Colony at Sidney; not to send Convicts.

On the Principle of free Emigration?

If Emigrants of Respectability and pious Persons could be induced to go there their Labours would be as productive of Good as the Missionaries.

You must get respectable People, and respectable People alone, to go out?

If the major Part were respectable it might have a good Influence upon the Remainder, and keep them within the Bounds of Moderation.

That is supposing that any Number of Persons going out were accompanied by some System and Regulation of Law?

Of course. I believe the New Zealanders would receive them with open Arms in that Case.

Are the Children instructed in the Bible to any Extent in the Schools; are they much grounded in the Doctrines of Christianity?

The Children do not arrive much at that Knowledge at present. The present State of New Zealand is such, the Teachers are so few, the Instruction devolves almost wholly upon the Wives of the Missionaries; and when they have their domestic Duties to attend to, in addition to their own Families, it is impossible they can give much Time to it.

Is there a Translation of the New Testament?

Yes.

They are instructed in that?

They are.

What Sort of Proficiency have they made; do they understand that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Some of them do.

Are the Wesleyans Holders of Lands as much as the Missionaries of the Church Missionary Society?

I think not, except Mr. White may be; I am not sure whether he may not be.

Are their Labours very efficient?

Equal to those of the Church Missionary Society.

Are they in a different Part of the Island to the Church Missionary Establishment?

Yes; it is about Thirty Miles distant, on the Western Coast, at Hokianga.

You say you paid the New Zealanders in Pencils and Knives, and so on; did they appear to have much Notion of the Value they ought to receive?

They appeared perfectly satisfied with the Payment.

If you called upon them to work for a certain Number of Hours more, would they consider that they ought to receive more?

We did not require them to work in the Evening.

If you had called upon them to work Ten or Eleven Hours, instead of Eight, do you think they would have been aware that they should receive more for it?

Yes. We give them an extra Payment if we want them to go a Journey, or any thing extra.

You say that some Chiefs there did not sanction a Purchase you referred to, but that the great Majority did?

Yes; there were some Chiefs that were not present, and did not go. Knowing that it had been purchased before, they told me, as I was going up the River Thames, and the Natives that were with me, that it was not straight.

Was the Purchase considered equally binding by both Parties, if they had not all agreed?

I do not think it is settled yet.

It remains an incomplete Transaction in consequence of that Difficulty?

It did when I left.

Do you know what is necessary to give a positive Sanction to the Sale of Property?

Yes; first to ascertain to whom the Property belonged, and to go to those Chiefs, and to give Notice of the Purchase some Months before, then to fix a Day for the Assembly.

Is every Individual connected with the Chief considered to have a certain Interest in the Land?

He comes partly to partake of the Feast always given upon those Occasions, both Women and Children; several Pigs are killed, and there is a Quantity of Flour and Fish, and so on.

Any one of the Relations or belonging to the Clan is supposed to have, in proportion, a personal Interest in the Transaction, so as to receive a Portion of the Purchase Money?

Not the Women or the Slaves, but the leading Men.

Is it in consequence of Relationship to the Chiefs, or what determines who shall be paid, and who shall not?

They settle that Difficulty among themselves; I do not know the exact Rule; but there are what we should call Gentlemen Chiefs, and petty Chiefs.

If any Number of those object the Purchase is considered incomplete?

I never heard of an Instance where they did; they are anxious to sell their Land.

Do you think that a New Zealander in selling Land to an European could make a Bargain with the same degree of Shrewdness as an European?

He would leave it to the European; they would talk the Matter over; he would ask them first what they would give, and then he would consider of it. Probably he would say he would not take that; then more would be offered. Sometimes they were aware that by staying a little Time more they would get more.

Have you known a New Zealander demur to what he considered an insufficient Offer?

I was not present at the first Commencement of the Purchase alluded to; I have no Proof that it is a general Thing. I have only heard from the Report of the Missionaries that such is the Case when they are first commencing to deal with the Natives.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.