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A I think till 5 January they were there. They were talking all the time, I mean. I wasn't privy to it, though. When it comes to these events -- because it wasn't national security related, but we had national security events going on and we would walk in the office and talk to him about it.
So the relationship was still --
Q So, in your observation, the relationship was close until the day before or so?
A Probably the day of, because on the 5th -- you know , I don't know. He was still coming into his West Wing office.
Q Okay.
A I'm pretty sure. I cannot -- honestly, , I can't be sure.
Q Of course. And I should preface all these questions by saying, if you're not sure, we understand. We're just looking for your best recollection.
A Yeah.
Q If you don't remember a specific date or time, that's totally fine.
You were aware, generally, of sort of a difference of opinion between them about the Vice President's power with respect to the certification of the electoral college?
A Yeah. And I think -- yeah. And I've got -- and I think -- and I think it was a push and pull between his staff, the Vice President's staff, and the President's staff. And forces kind of align that way.
Q Yeah.
A Where Greg Jacobs would be telling the Vice President something and maybe Pat -- and I don't know -- Pat Cipollone would be saying something to the President, Marc Short would be saying something to the Vice President, and Mark Meadows would be saying something to the
