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THE ANCESTOR 175 for this authority, he denies all knowledge of it. All he has to transmit is a chest containing nine charters, and these, to judge by the expressions used about them, were intended to prove the arms and not the pedigree. Eight, we are told, were sealed with the bend ; and none of these is likely to have been older than the thirteenth century. When therefore the other side reply that the abbot ad forge un discent encountre verite . . . saunz monstrer ascuns cronicles on autres munimentz ou evidences autentikes par qeux il purroit proever le discent suisdit est impossible & increahle q homme de tiel age ou de tiel estat duist proever ceo qil ad depose . . . par soun bouche^ there is but one word to which we can take exception. In the mouth of an advocate the word forge was not without justification under the circumstances ; but the impartial his- torian must hesitate to use so strong an expression, for reasons which will presently appear. Not that a Vale Royal chronicle would in any case be of much authority ; for the abbey was not founded until about 1270. Praers' ' muniment ' has already been described. Holford is usually put forward as heir general of the Lostocks ; but from the extinction of the male line their pedigree and the devolution of their estate are alike involved in obscurity. Though mesne lords of Hulme, the Holfords sprang from the second marriage of the heiress ; and she seems to have had male issue by her former husband. At all events the manor of Lostock Gralam has not been traced to them ; so that the deponent was not likely to be in possession of evidences relating to the progenitor of whom he speaks.^ Thus the earlier part of the pedigree rests upon nothing but tradition — confused, but not baseless tradition, as I hope to show. Not a word, be it observed, of the ' honourable and power- ful office of Le Grovenour,' or Grand Huntsman to the Dukes of Normandy, as others have called it. The court of France boasted its Grand Veneur but the office, as Anselme says, nest pas fort ancien^ dating from the fifteenth century. Before that time there had been a maitre Veneur^ or maitre de la Vennerie^ as early as 1231.^ There seems to be no evidence that such an official existed in Normandy, or in England, at the conquest. In Cheshire there were several forest serjeanties held by Kings- ley, Silvester, Davenport and others — one actually by a Gros- venor; but these were purely local, not court appointments. ^ Ormerod, i. 670 ; iii. 164. ^ Anselme, viii. 683, 694. M