Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords, appointed to inquire into the present state of the Islands of New Zealand/Tuesday, 10 April 1838/Frederick Wilkinson

by House of Lords

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Rev. F.Wiklinson

The Rev. Frederick Wilkinson is called in, and further examined as follows:

You were in New Zealand lately, were you not?

I was in New Zealand for about Three Months this Time last Year.

Will you state what led you to go there, and with whom you went.

I went with the Rev. Mr. Marsden, the Chaplain of New South Wales, having been myself a Chaplain in New South Wales, and was on my Passage to England, and took this Opportunity of going to New Zealand, that I might see the Country, and the Progress that had been made by the Missionaries.

You are not at all connected with the Church Missionary Society yourself?

Not at all.

Where did you first go?

We went to Hokianga, one of the Places.

On landing, what was the Course you took as to Residence?

I remained for a few Days with the Wesleyan Missionaries with Mr. Marsden, and then I walked across the Country, with a native Guide, to find out a Road that Mrs. Wilkinson might be able to accompany me to Waimate.

Did Mrs. Wilkinson afterwards accompany you?

Yes; Mr. Marsden, Miss Marsden, Mrs. Wilkinson, and Two little Children.

Did you cross the Island more than once?

I travelled Four or Five Times across from Hokianga to the Bay of Islands.

In the course of that Time had you much Intercourse with the Natives?

I was entirely with them Three Days. The first Time I went across I was not accustomed to walking, and the Roads are exceedingly bad there, so that I knocked up, and had to stop in one of their Villages; they were very kind to me; particularly so.

How did you carry on any Intercourse with them at that Time in Conversation?

Entirely by Signs, and Two or Three New Zealand Words which I knew. Some of them can speak a little English. They were exceedingly peaceable, and very kind and hospitable to me.

Had you an Opportunity of observing what Sort of Distinction in Rank exists in their Society?

The only Distinction is that between the Slave and the Chief.

Is every one called a Chief who is not a Slave?

I fancy so.

Had you any Opportunity of ascertaining in what Way the Land is held by them?

I think they inherit it from their Forefathers, and by Marriage they obtain a Right to Lands.

Did the Distinction of Property appear to be understood among themselves?

Perfectly; and they are particularly scrupulous in not infringing on another's Property. For instance, in returning from Waimate I was going to take some Peaches from a Tree that was there; the Native that was with me told me I must not do so; when I had gone a little Way farther he allowed me to take from another Peach-tree belonging to a Relation of his; it appeared that he could take that Liberty with a Relation.

Are you sure that the People who are not Chiefs are Slaves?

They are so considered. I have seen a great many of the Slaves a great deal better off than their Masters, and better dressed.

During your Stay there had you any Opportunity of seeing any Negotiation between Europeans and Natives relative to Land?

No; I have seen some of their Deeds; what they call Deeds.

You never happened to witness any Purchase of Land by Europeans?

Not any at all.

Do you know as a Fact whether much Land is held by Europeans?

Yes; I am aware that there is a great deal of Land, especially about the Bay of Islands, and about Hokianga; for Twenty Miles up, the Land has been located, with the Exception of small Pieces.

Had you any Opportunity of knowing whether the Natives allowed the Europeans to retain quiet Possession of the Land which had been alienated?

That was one Question which was talked of when I was there, when a Chief endeavoured to resume the Land which had been sold by his Father, because he thought his Father had not received a sufficient Price for it; but the Speculator had made a good Purchase, and wished to retain it.

Had you an Opportunity of knowing whether the Natives had any Ideas on Religion?

I saw the greatest Display, I think, of Christian Feeling that could be imagined among such People. I have seen Five hundred of them assembled at One Time at Public Worship, and particularly attentive and decorous in their Manners.

That was probably where the Missionaries have carried on their Labours?

Yes; they go down generally— the Missionaries have Service every Sunday— I am now speaking of the Wesleyan Missionaries— they come down on a Saturday to attend the Service on the Sunday, and they remain there till the Sunday Night, then a good many go away— the rest on Monday Morning; there are frequently Five or Six Hundred who attend. I went with the Wesleyan Missionaries to make their Calls at the different principal Stations they have when they delivered their Tickets to them, and I had an Opportunity of seeing a good many Congregations; they generally averaged from about 100 to 160— Three or Four up the Mangumuker.

Did they appear to enter into what was going on?

They were particularly attentive. I was present at one of their Love-feasts, when the Service continued until very nearly Eleven o'Clock at Night; and they all spoke, and spoke with great Ease, and very well. Some of them seemed a good deal affected; altogether I could not doubt their Sincerity.

Did that Feast exhibit any of the Disorder or State of Excitement which is sometimes said to follow?

No, not the least; they ate a Piece of Bread and drank Water.

It was conducted altogether with great Decorum?

It was, with very great Decorum.

You are yourself a Clergyman of the Church of England?

I am.

Had you an Opportunity of observing whether, among the Natives who had not had the Advantage of being visited at all by the Missionaries, there was any Notion of Religion?

The Second Night that I slept in the Bush in New Zealand I came to a Native's House, and was exceedingly tired; he begged of me to stop there, and made me very comfortable indeed, they gave me a clean Blanket and plenty of Fern to sleep on, which I did. After their Supper (which was Potatoes) they got their Book down (their Testament)— they most of them had a Testament— and read a Chapter out of the Testament, and the Family collected round, and afterwards they knelt and prayed, and then we retired to rest. In the same Way they began the Day the next Morning. That Man was not a baptized Christian, but he was a Christian. I have seen him at the Service afterwards; but he had not yet been baptized, nor any of his Family. He belonged to the Church Missionary Stations at Waimate.

In what Language was the Service read?

In the Native Language. They are exceedingly fond of reading; they never go away without their Book in their Blankets. It did not appear to be done for Effect, but as if it was their common Habit.

They had no Expectation of getting any thing from you?

Nothing at all. The Man was very kind to me; when I returned from Waimate he came to tender his Services.

What Observation did you make on the State of Cultivation?

They cultivate Potatoes very well; the Patches are very neatly kept, and they are very particular in not passing across the Sweet Potato Grounds. They could have an Abundance of Food; the Country is rich, and extremely well watered, much more so than New South Wales. They could irrigate in New Zealand if there was a Scarcity of Rain, but in New South Wales they would not have Water sufficient to do it.

How is the Climate?

It is a beautiful Climate; it is never so hot as New South Wales, nor is it so cold; it is more moist.

At what Period of the Year were you there?

From February to the 17th of May.

That would be corresponding with our Autumn?

Yes. The Summer was just over, and the stormy Season was beginning when we left the Island.

Were you much towards the Bay of Islands?

I was there about Six Weeks.

What is the State of the European Population there?

I think it is as bad as can be; quite as bad as can be. I was at Kororika. I do not know that I ever saw such a bad Community; there was Drunkenness and Profligacy of all kinds.

Is there much European Population on the West Coast, where the Wesleyans are?

Yes; a good deal, but not so much as at the Bay of Islands. They were generally in separate small Groups. They go there, not to make Money, for that they cannot do, but to live in a loose profligate Manner. They have easily found a Living there. They are generally Persons who have been obliged to get away from New South Wales on account of Debt.

Have you any Opportunity of judging of the Quantity of Land uncultivated with reference to the Population?

There is a very small Quantity uncultivated, considering the Population. It is all in Potatoes. A great Quantity of Potatoes may be grown on a small Space. They do not grow Wheat; that is too much Trouble. They would grow it if they could cook it as easily as Potatoes, but they hate the Trouble of grinding.

During your Stay had you any Opportunity of observing any Instances in which Natives worked as hired Slaves?

They worked for the Missionaries, but they had a good deal of Trouble with them.

From what Causes?

From Idleness; and if they were obliged to remonstrate with them they would leave them.

Did that often lead to Acts of Violence?

No. They are very particular in not striking them; that is considered a great Offence by the New Zealanders; it might be attended with bad Consequences.

If a New Zealand Slave was dissatisfied, did he show that by Acts of Violence, or going away?

By going away

Do you think that the Missionaries have been of great Service in New Zealand?

Of very great Service; immense Service. I look upon the Northern Part of the Island as a Christian People. There are Individuals who are not Christians, but they generally are Christians. They observe the Sunday very strictly.

The Population in the Bay of Islands, as far as Europeans are concerned, are Outcasts of Society, the Majority of them, are they not?

Yes; the Mixture of Americans and English. I do not think that they are Convicts, many of them. It is supposed there are a great many Convicts that have escaped from the Colony; but I do not think that.

But Men quite as immoral as the Convicts?

Quite as immoral.

Has that any injurious Effect in respect of the Efficacy of the Missionaries?

Yes; but I do not think that has an Effect on account of those Men being supposed to be Christians; for they have the Bible, and they apply to that, and see that the Scriptures do not speak of those Things as to be encouraged; that the Scriptures point out to them that they are to lead moral Lives; they see that those Men do not lead moral Lives, therefore they say they are no Christians. It does not injure their Faith, I think.

Do you think the Missionaries have much Influence with the Natives?

Very great.

They are willing to exercise it at all Times to make Peace between the Natives?

I think so, entirely.

Your answer applies both to the Church Missionary Society and the Wesleyans?

Both of them.

Had you an Opportunity of visiting any Schools which had been formed by the Missionaries?

Yes; I lived with Mr. Williams, at Waimate, one of the Missionaries; his Lady had a School which I witnessed almost every Day.

What is your Opinion of the Intellect of the Children?

I do not think they are particularly clever, there are Children who are clever, but I had one myself who was not particularly clever.

The Mr. Williams you speak of was a Clergyman?

Yes; both are now Clergymen. Mr. William Williams was brought up as a Surgeon.

The Missionaries have very little Authority over the White Residents at the Bay of Islands, have they?

Very little. They have erected a Chapel at Kororika, and one of the Missionaries goes over there every Sunday; some attend, but not many.

Had you ever any Means of inquiring of the Natives of what Religion they were, or whether they professed any prior to the Missionaries going there?

No. I could not speak the Language sufficiently to obtain that Information from themselves, but they certainly had some Notions of Religion; they never undertook any thing without a Prayer.

Did they not read a Prayer over their Dead?

I do not know.

From what you saw of the Chiefs, do you think they are enabled to make a fair Bargain in the Sale of their Land to Europeans?

I do not. I think that they ought to be treated like Wards in Chancery; that they have not the Experience to make it.

You would then think it desirable, that if a Colony was encouraged to go there, there should be some Persons on the Part of the English Government to see that the Chiefs had fair Play.

Certainly; I should treat them like Wards in Chancery.

Would you think it right to have a Protector of the Natives in that Country?

I think it would be most necessary and important to the Peace of the Country, for they would know where to go to find a Person to look to their Interests.

Do you know whether they still continue to be Cannibals?

Sometimes. They ate a Woman when I was there, which was the Cause of the War which took place this Time Twelvemonth.

How did they get the Woman?

I do not know. The Circumstances were not known, except that they found the Place where she had been cooked, in an Island in the Bay of Islands.

The Women commit Infanticide frequently, do they not?

I never heard of a Case; they are very kind to their Children.

You never heard that after having a certain Number of Children they killed the others to avoid the Trouble?

That is the Case in New South Wales. If they cry too much, or anything else, they do not mind killing them. But the New Zealanders are very different; a Number of Children to them is no Injury at all; they have plenty of Potatoes.

From what Port of New South Wales did you sail?

Port Jackson; and we were, I think, Twelve or Thirteen Days going down. We had a very bad Passage, and were very nearly lost in going into the River Hokianga; it is a very bad Entrance.

There is no Steam Boat goes across?

No; this was a Vessel to load with Spars for the British Government. There is a tremendous Bar at going in.

It is rather a narrow Inlet, is it not?

The Tide runs very strong; if there was not such a Bar it would be a very good River; when inside they can go up with perfect Safety.

There is not a very large Population of Whites at Hokianga, is there?

There are a good many scattered all up the River.

You are now doing Duty at Eastbourne, are you not?

I am.

Do you think that in Purchases of Land a New Zealander will often give his Land without sufficient Value received?

Yes. I think he is scarcely capable of considering what it is worth; if the thing takes his Fancy he will take it without Consideration or Forethought. They have no Idea of storing or saving against an evil Day. There are One or Two on the other Side of the Island who are beginning to do so, but at Hokianga they are particularly careless about that.

Did you ever know of a Settler or European who had bought Land for any Payment, and sold it before he had made Improvements upon it?

I do not.

With respect to the Sale of Land, what is necessary to give a legal Title; is it the Consent of the Chief only?

The Chief, I believe. The People have no Power upon the Land.

Do you know what constitutes the Law?

I do not; there are a great Number of Proprietors.

You state that you have seen a Deed; of what Nature was that?

This Deed was signed by the Natives before the Deed was written; it was signed on blank Paper.

It is stated that in Purchases made by Europeans there have been a great many contending Claims; that many Europeans have laid Claim to the same Land?

I believe that is the Case.

Do you know from what that has arisen?

I do not. I know there have been Claims between the Wesleyan Missionaries and Mr. McDonald.

With respect to certain Lands sold by the Natives to the Missionaries and to Mr. McDonald, can you tell whether that has arisen from the Claims of the Persons who have sold the Land being disputed by others?

I do not know, but that Persons have come in afterwards, and said they had a Claim upon the Land.

There is a Petition from the Merchants, Traders, and others praying for Protection, and some signed as the Missionaries; have they suffered at all?

No, except being turned out once at Wangaroa; but there has never been a Loss of Life among the Missionaries.

There are several Places where there are Congregations at present?

A great many.

Are those Congregations generally within a few Miles of a Missionary Establishment, or do they extend to some considerable Distance?

To a considerable Distance; Mangumuku, the farther Station, must be, I suppose, Twenty-five Miles very nearly.

Your Opinion is that the Labour of the Missionaries has effected a great deal of Good in christianizing the Country?

A very great deal. I was quite astonished, though I had been so near them; I did not believe the Extent to which it had gone.

Do the Missionaries possess much Land?

I do not think the Wesleyans possess much Land; the Church Missionaries do, I know.

Do you think the Possession of that Land to the Extent to which it goes impedes the full Success that might be given to their Labours?

No, I do not think that it does. I think they are a very conscientious Set of Men, and that they would not allow their Attention to be diverted from their proper Employment.

Do you know what the Number of the permanent Population of the Bay of Islands may be?

I do not.

Is the Land immediately round the Bay of Islands a Portion of that with which the Chiefs have parted?

Most of the Land round the Bay of Islands the Chiefs have parted with.

Do you know whether it is in the Hands of the Missionaries or the Hands of other Individuals?

The Land from Waitangi round to Kawkaw belongs to the Missionary Society, to Mr. Henry Williams, and Mr. Fairbairn's Children; it was pointed out to me as such.

Upon that Land are any of those Interlopers settled?

They are not. The Land was purchased to keep them off; to prevent any Settlement of Europeans on that Side.

Where is it the Europeans principally live?

At Kororarika and Otoiku; that is Pomarree's Part.

To whom does that Land belong on which they have settled themselves?

To various Proprietors; I do not know the Names.

The Chiefs have part of it?

Yes; the Chiefs have kept possession of Kororarika.

When you were there was Mr. Busby there?

He was.

Where did he reside?

He resided near Waitangi; I forget the Name of the Place.

Is that in the Bay of Islands?

Yes.

Does he exercise any Authority over those casual Settlers?

Not any at all.

Do the Chiefs retain any Authority, and exercise any Authority over them, in the Country round the Bay of Islands?

I do not think they do at all.

At present they are under no Law whatever?

They are under no Law whatever.

You do not know the Amount of the Population of that Class?

No; if I were to guess I should say about Five hundred.

Are they permanent Settlers, or do they belong to Ships which come in there to trade?

A good many of them are permanent Settlers, but not respectable Settlers; several are Persons who are respectable, and who have permanent Establishments for the Supply of Ships; but there are a Parcel of Fellows who keep Grog Shops and Beer Shops, who are Runaways from Ships.

Upon whose Property have those Persons established their Domicile?

Most likely those Men purchase small Pieces of Land from the Chiefs for the Purpose of putting up their Houses. One of the Missionaries has got a Section in Kororarika which he purchased at a Sale.

Was that a Sale on the Part of the Chiefs?

No; a Person who purchased it from the Chiefs.

Suppose Mr. Busby had any Authority by Law to remove Persons, do you think that would tend to improve the Character of Foreigners settling there?

I do not know what Authority could be given to him, unless it was well supported by Constables and Troops; for there are so many Ways for those Men to escape. They might stir up the Natives to assist them in opposing Mr.Busby. He has always been well inclined to settle their Disputes, if they would apply to him; and he has used his Influence, I know, as much as he could, with the Natives, to get back Boats. The Natives take the Law into their own Hands, and take away the Ship’s Boats if they are not paid.

Are the Natives disposed to ardent Spirits?

Not much; some of them are, and that generally kills them, for they are not strong Men in Constitution; they suffer very much from scrofulous Diseases.

What should you think would be the Feeling of the Chiefs if, on any Plan of Occupation and Colonization, they were to be invited to give up all their territorial and sovereign Rights?

I think they would be very glad of it.

And to live under a System that was established by a Foreign Government?

Not all Foreign Governments, but the British Government; that they would be very happy to give up what little Authority they possess, for they possess very little; they would be very glad to give it up to the British Government. They would not know what they were doing, but they would take for granted that they were safe in trusting to honourable People. They know the higher Classes of English People, and they take the Character of the English from them more than they would from the Convicts who go there.

When they do sell a Portion of Land they part with the sovereign Title over it; do they understand that?

Yes; but I do not think, according to their own native Laws, they have a Right to do that; for instance, suppose a Man sold his Land, and after his Death his Son was strong enough, he would go and take that Land again; that is their Law. A very little Title would do for them, if they are strong enough.

Are they ever in the habit of parting with their Land to one another?

I do not know that they allow one another to sit down upon a Piece of Land, but I do not think they can part with it. Shungi's Wars were occasioned by that Principle. He went to Hokianga, to get Possession of Land which belonged to him by Inheritance, possessed by another Tribe, and he told a great many Persons he had a Title to Wangaroa, and when he was strong enough he went and took Possession of it.

If any other Chief had sold that Land to a European, Shungi would have considered himself entitled to the Property which belonged to him?

Yes.

Therefore without his Consent it would not have been a good Transaction?

Just so. I know that they have great Difficulties in getting all the Persons who have a Claim to act together.

They are very tenacious of their territorial Rights?

I should think they are.

They would go to war to maintain them?

Yes; but if you wish to settle among them they would give you a Piece of Land, and would be happy that you should remain there, and would respect your Property, and not go across it.

That would not be like parting with the Sovereignty?

No. Some of the Europeans there pretend to say they have got Sections on Sections; Miles square; all the Cowrie Forests, in fact.

The Cowrie is the Pine?

Yes; a very superior Sort of Wood; it grows to a great Length.

In the Case of the Land you spoke of, which had been in Possession of a European, did he cultivate it after it was sold?

It was in a Township; it was a Town Allotment.

You are not aware of any Collision between the Missionaries and the European Population; the runaway Convicts?

No, I am not; they generally keep in the Background.

Supposing there was such a Quarrel, do you think the Natives would be more likely to side with the Missionaries, or with them?

Certainly. They are not wanting in Sensibility; they are sensible Fellows. They do not respect those People at all; they call them by Terms of Reproach, meaning a foreign Native.

Do they ever harbour them in their Families in the Interior?

They will allow them to remain for a short Time; not very long; they will allow them to remain Two or Three Days, but not longer, unless they work.

Are there not Instances of disreputable Characters assuming the native Dress, and living among the Natives?

I never heard that; they live as bad as the Natives, but I never saw any of them in the native Dress. They live there for the Purpose of Profligacy, a good many of them.

Their Profligacy receives no Check from the Natives?

None whatever.

You say that some of the Slaves are better off than their Masters; are you aware whether they have any independent Property?

I do not know whether they have, but they appear quite as respectable as their Masters. At one Place where I was the Chief was very badly dressed, and the Slave was very well dressed in the European Style, and his Family; that

was near Waimate.

In what Way did he work?

He did not work; he had been a Prisoner taken in War; his Master could compel him to work, but did not. The Women do most of the Work in the Plantations.

Does he dare to leave?

He might go about the Neighbourhood, but he does not try to go beyond the District.

Was he free to hire himself to Europeans and receive the Wages himself?

Yes.

Could he do so without the Permission of his Master?

Yes. I do not speak of Workpeople; but if I wanted a Man to go on a Message, I should take him and pay him.

Suppose you wanted him to cut down a Pine?

I should pay him; but he would not continue without the Permission of his Master.

Are they anxious for Instruction in the course of their Service, or not?

They are very eager to obtain Information in Reading and Writing.

Are they anxious for Instruction on religious Matters as well as secular?

Yes. And though the Bible is not translated into their Language, they know the principal Facts of the Bible, as stated in their Chapels and Schools.

Have they any Feeling of Jealousy of having their Religion interfered with?

Not at all. I do not think they have much Regard for their own Religion.

Is there any religious Order amongst them?

I think there is a person called a Priest.

Are the Church Missionary Lands held in common, or the particular Property of each?

I think the Lands about Karakara were purchased by Mr. Marsden, for the Church Missionary Society; but the other Lands, I think, have been purchased by Individuals. The Missionaries are allowed by the Church Missionary Society so much when a Child becomes Fourteen Years of Age; 100l.; and some of it might be laid out in Land or in Speculation.

Are there any American Missionary Stations there?

No.

Are there any Americans residing there?

Yes; I met with Two or Three living at Kororarika.

Were they in large Numbers?

No.

Do you think the Natives know the Difference between the Americans and the British?

I do not think they do.

If an American Company were to go to the Bay of Islands, would the Natives know whether they were British or Americans?

No, I think not.

Do you think that the Americans and the British agree together?

Yes; I do not know of any Quarrels; they were very polite to me when I was there.

You do not think the People could distinguish them?

No.

Were the Americans you saw there Merchants?

No; Persons who had little Shops; Shopkeepers, and Grog-house Keepers.

You have mentioned Mr. Busby; what is he?

The British Resident.

How long did you stay in the Neighbourhood of the Bay of Islands?

I was there twice, for a few Days each Time; I was for Six Weeks at Waimate, about Fifteen Miles off.

Did you visit any other Part of the Island except the District of Hokianga and the Bay of Islands?

No.

You state that the Natives were willing to give or sell Land to Europeans who came amongst them; do you think that was for the Purpose of obtaining Instruction in European Arts?

I do think so. They are very fond of having Europeans amongst them; they think they are very useful to them; they bring Trade, and they obtain their Blankets by that Means, and various other Things they require.

Do you think they would be equally willing to receive them if they thought they came to change their Customs and Manners?

I think they are very jealous of their Customs generally.

Do you think if a European Colony came and altered their whole Law of Inheritance that they would like that?

I think so; I do not think they would understand, until it was explained to them, the Intention of Government, which could not be to take away their Property, but to protect them. I think they would be glad of that.

Supposing a Company went to purchase large Tracts of Land, with the view in that Purchase of abolishing the native Customs and Laws, and substituting English Laws in their Stead, what would be their Opinion?

I do not think they would like that; I do not think they would understand it. It has been reported to me that they have expressed a Wish that a Government should be established amongst them. For instance, if the English Law respecting Slavery were introduced I am sure they would rebel against it, if theirs can be called Slavery.

You state that you have never known Infanticide practised; did you observe whether there was any Disproportion among the Number of Male and Female Children?

No, I did not. I think there was a due Proportion.

The Missionaries have Children grown up to full Age, have they not?

None quite to full Age; there are some Sixteen or Seventeen; I think, indeed, there is One in Mr. King's Family grown up. There are now 100 Children in their families.

Suppose a Chief were to sell the Whole of the Land over which he claims to exercise the Authority of a Chief, what would become of him and all the subordinate Chiefs who would have a Lien upon that Land?

He must move off to some other Property they have; they possess Property in different Parts of the Country.

Suppose he were followed by another Settler, who made another Bargain and bought that Piece also?

He must move off to a Third.

So that he might ultimately be deprived of all his Landed Property?

He might.

What Means of Maintenance would he or any Person belonging to him have in that Case?

I think One of his Friends would take him in; they are very kind and charitable to one another. That was the Case in the Bay of Islands: Parties have come and sat themselves down at Pomarree's Farm, and he allowed it.

If Pomarree were to sell his Property the same Process must be gone through?

Yes; they would have recourse to that. There is a great deal of Land of no Use to them which would be useful to Europeans, which would produce Wheat, but which they can never get to produce any thing.

Would not the Tendency of those successive Sales on their Part be ultimately to destroy the native Race?

Certainly it would; they would perish before the Europeans, if there were not some Regulation to restrain the Alienation of their Property.

As far as you were able to see at the Bay of Islands and the Neighbourhood of Hokianga, if a British Resident had Power to arrest such Europeans as were guilty of Acts of Violence against a Native, do you think that would put an end to much of the Evil which at present exists?

I do not think that would be sufficient, unless the Exercise of his Power were well supported, the Progress of the Settlement is so great. If the Protections for Property were greater there would be much greater Encouragement to Persons to go out and purchase Land.

Would not such Authority be beneficial both to the Natives and to the European Settlers?

I think it would.

Do many of those Persons who take refuge in New Zealand from New South Wales intermarry with the Natives?

Yes; I was present at One Marriage.

Are there many Children arising from such Marriages; Half Castes?

Yes.

Does it appear likely that such a Population will increase?

Yes, I think so.

You state that the New Zealanders were not willing to take the Trouble of raising Wheat for their Consumption, on account of the Difficulty of grinding it?

Yes; that appeared so to me.

Are you aware whether they had in any Instances raised Wheat or Maize for the Purpose of Export?

I do not think that they have raised any for Export; but I know some of the more industrious have raised it for themselves in individual Cases.

It was stated by a Witness, that from the Neighbourhood of Poverty Bay large Quantities of Wheat and Maize had been exported to New South Wales in a Time of Scarcity?

I never heard of that.

You stated that you left the Island about the Time of the Beginning of the stormy Season; are there periodical Seasons of Storm?

Yes; the Winter is generally very stormy, especially on the West Side of the Island. It is a very dangerous Coast.

How many Months does that continue?

tI continues during the Winter.

During that Season it is dangerous for the Ships to approach that Coast?

Yes. The Bay of Islands they may approach at any Time.

With respect to the Missionaries, did you ever hear that there had been some great Difference of Opinion between Mr. Busby and the Missionaries?

Not at the Time I was there; they were on the best Terms possible.

Did you hear that there had been?

I saw it referred to in a Letter of Mr. Busby's, which was published.

Are you aware whether many of the Masters of Whalers attend the Church Service at the Bay of Islands when they are there?

I do not think they do.

Were there any Ships of War there while you were there?

No.

Are there any Schools now kept by native Teachers?

In some Places. At one Place I was at, Waronico, at some Distance from the Bay of Islands, they had a native Teacher. The Missionary goes once a week to visit it; he goes on Saturday, and comes back on the Monday.

In those Parts of the Country that were not immediately in the Neighbourhood of the Missionaries were there Christians?

In one Village I slept in there were a Number of Christians.

Was not there a good deal of Land purchased some Years ago by an Association?

I did not hear of that.

You did not hear that at the Time when Mr. White was resident there they came to him, and requested him to state to the Purchasers that they were very willing to fulfil the Engagement or to give him back the Price, but that they wished the Land to be cultivated?

I did not hear that.

When you said that the Son in some Instances had come and resumed the Land his Father had parted with, was that in Cases where he conceives that the Consent of all Parties interested had not been given?

I cannot tell what the Reason might be. I think it is from a Sort of Idea that the Father cannot alienate the Property.

You do not know what it is that gives the Claim upon Land to any particular Person besides the Chief?

I do not.

You said that if the Land was continued to be sold the Chief might be left destitute in the end; do you think that would be the Case if there were certain Districts settled on the People in which all Purchases by Europeans would be void ?

I think that would be a sufficient Protection. But I do think that if there was a Government there the New Zealanders would rapidly increase. There is plenty of Food; they would have an Opportunity of providing for a Family, and their Wars would be done away with. An insignificant Chief who has hardly an Acre of Land now may embroil a whole Community.

You do not know the Number of Europeans Landholders in the Island?

I do not.

Are they increasing?

I should think they are; the Natives are very ready to sell to them.

Supposing the Son to have concurred with his father in selling Land, have you known any Instance in which, after a Transfer solemnly made in this Manner, the Son has proceeded to resume the Land?

I have not.

Do you think that likely?

I do not know whether he would from a European, but he would from a Native. I think the strong Arm is the Protection to their Property.

In the course of your Intercourse with the Country did you hear of any Instance of that Kind occurring with regard to a European?

I know one Case where a Native was threatening to resume the Land, on account of its being a bad Bargain that his Wife's Father had made, and he thought the Speculator had made enough out of it; that was on the Mangumuku, one of the Cowrie Forests.

Supposing the British Resident to be armed with more Power, and other Things to remain the same, do you conceive it likely that Europeans would continue to make Purchases of Land, and that they would increase?

I think they would increase, and that there must be a regular Government in the Country. I do not think the Chiefs would be satisfied without a Government. The joining Mr. Busby with the Chiefs I do not think would succeed; it would in fact be only Mr. Busby or the Resident's. The Chief would say anything that he wished if he would give him a Blanket.

The Suggestion made was, not that Mr. Busby should carry on the Government of the Island, but that he should be armed with Authority to arrest any Persons guilty of Violence on the Natives or the Europeans?

I think that was the Case with Mr. Butler, some Years ago; he was a Magistrate, and I think he had Power to enforce the Law.

Had he any Force?

He had one Force that Mr. Busby has not, for he was a Missionary; he had no Police.

As far as your Experience goes, do you think the native Chiefs would interfere to prevent the Arrest of the Persons who have been guilty of Acts of Violence, if demanded by the Resident?

I should think in some Cases they would.

You state that you think there must, sooner or later, be a regular Government; do you mean that the British Authority should be regularly established there, to the Exclusion of the native Authority?

I do. They will be treated of course as free Subjects, of equal Consequence in the Government as the Europeans were, I should think; but there must be some regular Government; they will never be able to govern themselves.

You think that the Chiefs should be divested of their present Authority?

Yes; I do not think that can be exercised with any good Effect.

Has not the Independence of the Country been recognized?

I do not know that; there has been a Flag taken there, and some Ceremony with the native Chiefs, I believe. I have an Address of Mr. Busby's to the Chiefs. I think it is translated into the native Language.

If this Government has recognized the Independence of the native Chiefs, how can it take that Authority from them?

The Acknowledgment of their Independence was a very informal Act, I imagine.

Mr. Busby states, in a Despatch to the Governor of New South Wales, “the Flag of New Zealand has been formally recognized by the British Government as the Flag of an independent State”?

They had the Choice of several Flags, I believe, and they stuck up one for some Time.

You have alluded to some Law in the Island, when you spoke of the Son having the Power to resume Land?

I spoke only of that I could gather from the History of the Country.

Do you mean that there is any general Law which prohibits a Father from alienating?

I do not know any. There is no written Law; it is all Custom; but they will, when strong enough to do so, resume the Land. I believe they think the best Title of a Man is of very little Consequence if they are strong enough.

Do you think that where they have resumed the Land they resumed it on any Principle?

They had some Claim to it; but they did not balance the Claims to it much, I believe.

Are you able to give any Information as to the Interior of the Land One hundred Miles from the Sea Coast?

I only went across from Hokianga to Waimate; I went up the Kawa-Kawa on one Journey, and to Karakara, and back to Hokianga. A Person who came in the Ship with us had been to Kiapara; he told me it was a magnificent Country; that the River was navigable for One hundred Miles, and one of the Missionaries has a Purchase there, Mr. Baker of Manahia.

When you spoke of the Propriety of making a Reserve of Land for the Natives, are you aware whether the Island affords Land enough to make that Reserve, and still to afford Land for Occupation by a good many Europeans?

Yes, certainly. The Population, I have understood, at Kiapara is very trifling; for One hundred Miles there are not above One hundred People; it is a very productive Soil if it were well cultivated.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.