Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords, appointed to inquire into the present state of the Islands of New Zealand/Tuesday, 10 April 1838/Nayti

by House of Lords

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Appendix to the Evidence of 10th April 1838.

Nayti

Nayti is called in, and further examined as follows:

You belong to the Kawia Tribe in New Zealand?

Yes.

The Chief is Raupero?

Yes.

Your Father is First Cousin to Raupero?

Yes.

Is your Father an old Man?

Yes; his Hair is White.

Your Tribe live in Cloudy Bay, in Cook's Straits?

Yes.

You came to Europe in a French Whaling Ship?

Yes.

The Captain told you if you came to France you should see Louis Philippe?

Yes.

But you did not see Louis Philippe, did you?

No.

You did not know that the Captain intended to make you work?

I did not know it until I came on board the Ship. The Captain came to me, and said I should see Louis Philippe if I would go with him. I did not know that the Captain intended to make me work; I was glad to see Louis Philippe, and I came on board the Ship; and then, when I came a little way, the Captain said, “Now you go and pull that Rope;” and he made me work the whole Way.

You came to Havre de Grace?

Yes.

New Zealand Women kill their Children sometimes, do they not?

Sometimes they do.

Why do they kill the Children?

Because they have too many.

They kill Boys as well as Girls?

Yes; they kill Boy or Girl when they have too many.

They only kill them when they are quite little?

Yes; he comes to Day, and then they kill him.

Do the New Zealand Women very often kill their little Children?

No. Some Women do it; not many. They like Nine or Ten; they do not like any more, then they kill them.

Do you think a New Zealand Chief would like to sell his Land to White Men?

I am afraid to say; I will only say what I would do myself.

Have you any Land yourself?

I have got Land.

Would you sell?

I would sell; I like English People; but I cannot say what other People would do.

Do you know of any Chief that has sold Land?

No; I never saw one.

Would you like that New Zealand should be under the English Queen, to be like England?

I would like the English Queen; but as to other People I do not know. I am afraid to say any thing respecting my own Countrymen, for fear that your English People when they go there should find it is not true, then I should be ashamed of it.

Are not New Zealand Men very often ashamed of the English Sailors and Convicts there, who frequent the Grog Shops?

Yes, they are ashamed.

If you went back should you keep on your English Clothes or go back to the Dress of your Tribe?

If I go to New Zealand I put off English Clothes, because they will be soon worn out, and I cannot get others; but if I am with English People I wear English Clothes.

Do you think the other New Zealand People would do so too?

I think so; that they would like them.

Do you think if a Captain told a New Zealander he would give him Powder or Blankets to bring back a runaway Sailor he would do it?

If a Man were to run away, if a Captain came and offered Powder, or Musket, or a Blanket, the Chief would go and bring the Man back again for it.

Are there not a great many Whites where you live?

Many at Cloudy Bay, and all round New Zealand.

Are there not many Grog Shops now in Cook's Straits and Queen Charlotte's Sound?

Yes. There are Mr. Barrow and Mr. Warren keep Grog Shops, like others.

Do they sell Grog for Whalebone?

Yes.

Do you know Mana?

It is there.

In Cook's Straits?

Yes.

Does it belong to your Tribe?

Yes.

Mr. Barrow of Sydney bought Mana, did not he?

Yes.

Did he give a large Gun for it?

Yes.

Did Mr. Barrow marry your Sister, Popeora?

Yes.

They have a Child, have not they?

Yes, they have.

Does Mr. Ross live at Mana, to take care of Mr. Barrow's Ships?

Yes.

Does he grow Wheat?

Yes; and Potatoes, Tobacco, Cabbage, and Peaches.

Do you know Kapiti or Entry Island in Cook's Straits?

Yes.

Does Raupero live there?

Yes.

There are plenty of Convicts at Kapiti, are there not?

Plenty.

Do not the Men who live there buy Flax of New Zealand People?

Yes.

Did you ever see any Convicts come in with Irons on the Leg?

No, I never did. If they come on board Ship they get the Sailors to cut them off.

When Men came with Irons on their Legs to New Zealand did the New Zealand People understand what that was for?

They know they were bad Men.

There are Slaves whom you call Cookees there, are there not?

Yes; I have a Cookee.

A Cookee's Child is not a Cookee?

No. I have a Cookee; if he marries a Gentlewoman the Child is a Gentleman, and no Cookee.

Cookees are Prisoners of War?

Yes.

Are there many Cookees belonging to your Tribe?

Yes. My Tribe is not a very large Tribe, but many Cookees; they have been in many Countries.

Your Tribe have many War Canoes?

Yes.

You do not know how many?

I do not. We New Zealand People do not know how many there are of a Thing.

Is there a good deal of Land uncultivated in the South as well as in the North Islands?

A great deal in both Islands, there is.

Which do you consider the best Island to have Land in; the North or the South Island?

The Northern Island is a great deal better than the Southern. There are many high Mountains in the South.

Suppose an Englishman wished to purchase Land, must he ask only the Chief, or all the Tribe?

He must ask the Chief first, if he has the Right. He asks one Chief, and if he will not, he goes to another Chief, who says, “Very good,”— if he wants to buy Land, to build a House on, or to keep Things for Sale.

Who gets the Powder and Musket, and Tobacco, and Blanket, given for Land?

If I sell my Land they will give it me; but I give it away to all the People; I do not keep it myself; they give me a Part.

Do you give Cookee any thing?

I give Cookee some. I give the Land to Englishmen.

Supposing an Englishman wanted to buy, must he ask the Cookees?

No.

Do you sell the Cookee too, supposing an Englishman buys Land?

No. But if any one wishes to buy one of my Cookees I will sell him.

Suppose you sell Land to an Englishman, who gives you a Blanket, do you give the Cookee with the Land, or take the Cookee away?

I take the Cookee away to another Land.

Suppose you wished to sell Land, could you sell it, or must you ask the Areeka of your Tribe?

Only me. Areeka has no Power over my Land. I cannot go to the Chief to prevent his selling; and the Chief cannot prevent my selling.

Does the Chief get any Part of the Blanket?

No. I keep it for my People, for my Men; nor the Chief does not give any to me.

Suppose you sold Land to an Englishman, and then the Englishman died, would your Son come and take the Land again?

No. The New Zealand Children learn to read in a Book,— a New Zealand Boy, and New Zealand Men, like Englishmen; therefore they would not take the Land. They cannot read now— all my Head speaks New Zealand.

How long have you been in England?

About Nine Months.

If an Englishman buys Land from you is it straight that he should sell that Land to me?

I have never seen any of those Sales. I have seen one Place where an Englishman gave a Cannon for an Island.

Suppose a Chief who has Land dies, what becomes of his Land?

All the People have it.

Not his Children?

No; all the People.

Do the Cookees get any Land when the Chief dies?

No. The Cookee comes to live there, but he has no Land given him. They can grow Potatoes and Cabbage, and so on. It is all Gentleman's Land; the Cookees work upon it. In England it is different, for a poor Man is obliged to walk about the Road, and has no Place to grow Potatoes.

When a Chief dies who is the new Chief; is it his Son?

They do not make the Son Chief.

How do they do it?

A Number of People come in one Place, some very great Orator, some one who can speak very well, stands up, and proposes some one to be Chief.

Do they ever disagree about it, and is that ever the Cause of War?

They say, “I like it as well;” they all agree with the first Speaker.

Would you like more English to come there than there are now?

I like it. I do not know what my Countrymen would like. I think they would like it too, because they like even the bad People now. I think they would like Gentlemen.

Would you like New Zealand to be under English Laws, that if a Man killed another, he should be punished as he is in England?

People like me do not understand, but the Children who are taught to read would like English People, and would like that.

Would you like all your Cookees to be made no Cookees, but free?

No. If I were to die then they would be free, but not while I live.

If a New Zealander kills a Man does the Chief kill him?

If they fight and kill one with a Spear the Brother comes and kills that Man.

Where a Chief is buried the Place is taboo'd?

It is.

If a New Zealand Man gets over the Fence, what happens to him?

He knows the Mark which is taboo'd; they say, “You see the Place which is taboo'd; why do you go to a place which is taboo'd?”

What do the New Zealand People do to him?

They take all his Things away. If a New Zealander gets into a taboo'd Ground, the Man whom that taboo'd Ground belongs to goes and takes his Pig, and every thing belonging to him.

Do they ever kill him?

No.

If one New Zealander steals from another New Zealander, how do they punish him?

He would say, “You Thief, you Rogue, why do you steal?” but they do nothing; there is no Police.

Suppose you found him?

Suppose I found him, I say, “You thieve my Things;” he says, “No.” I say, “Oh, I saw you.” He brings them back again then when he finds I know it.

Do you beat him?

No.

Do you speak to the Thief?

No. He takes them back again; he is ashamed.

Are there as many Wars as there were many Years ago?

No. They do not fight so much as they did; they used to fight every Moon.

Why do not they fight so much now?

It is in consequence of the English People persuading them not to fight.

Do the New Zealand People drink much Grog?

Some do, and some not; those accustomed to drink Spirits will drink some, but those that are not used to them will spit them out again.

Do you remember an English Ship of War called the Alligator having a Fight with a Tribe?

Yes.

What did they fight for?

There was a Ship whaling in Cloudy Bay; in the Dark it went ashore, and was wrecked; the Natives came and burnt the Ship, and took away the Captain's Wife and his Child. The Captain went back to Sydney, and brought the Alligator, and the People of the Alligator killed several New Zealand People, and got back the Wife and Child.

The Chief took great Care of the Wife, did he not?

The Gentlemen took care of them.

They do not burn Ships now?

No. At that Time they did not know what it was; when this happened a Ship had never been there before; Ships did not go there, for Want of Water.

Are there any White Missionary Men in Cloudy Bay?

No.

Do you think that the White Men behaved ill in that Affair, or the New Zealanders?

I think the New Zealand Men did bad, because the New Zealand Men came and set fire to the Ship.

Were there not English Soldiers came ashore in the Country at that Time from the Alligator?

Yes.

Was the Captain of the Soldiers who commanded those Troops a good Man or bad Man?

I think he was a very good Man.

How many Wives and Children have most of the New Zealand Chiefs?

Some have Two, Three, and Four Wives. I do not know,— I cannot tell how many Children they have.

Have any of them as many as Ten Children?

Yes, some of them.

How many Children will a New Zealand Woman have before she kills any?

Some Seven, and some Eight; then they begin.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.