Talk:America's Image in the World

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Information about this edition
Edition: Remarks made from the Senate Floor (as given by Sen. Byrd) and published in the Congressioanl Record by GPO.
Source: 2003 Congressional Record, Vol. 149, Pg. S3954 (March 19, 2003)
Contributor(s): Kendrick7
Level of progress: Text complete 50%.png
Notes: This official text slightly differs from the version found on The copy archived from Sen. Byrd's site looks identical to Salon's. C-SPAN's video clip relates to another set of differences outlined below.

Spoken versionEdit

I just submitted changes to bring this copy in line with what Byrd actually said on the Senate floor, as seen/heard at (part 1 of speech) and (part 2). Now, I assumed my changes would be reverted because they weren't based on a published, written version of the speech, so I've already reverted my edit. I did want to leave it in the page history, though, just in case someone wanted to do something with it. - dcljr (talk) 09:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Think again - any remark made in either chamber of Congress ARE published. Amended title and text to reflect Sen. Byrd's remarks as published in the Congressional Record. -- George Orwell III (talk) 22:50, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
But the text still differs from what Byrd actually said, which was my point. So... not sure what you mean by "Think again". - dcljr (talk) 23:34, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Lets's check again - I only finished replacing the previous text with CRec version about 5 minutes after the above post was made by you. -- George Orwell III (talk) 23:56, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Well other than your interpretation of how or where punctuation, capitalization or pargraph breaks should go compared to what GPO published, I can only find 2 differences between the two ('America' vs. 'American' and 'that' vs. 'which'). Both of those could be corrected by {{SIC}} or something.

The point I wanted to make was never rely on 3rd party versions of supposed speeches etc. If you replace those with official transcriptions - THEN you have a better case or point to make all around when you compare them to video or sound. Nobody is going to care if got something wrong - people will care if the Congressional Record is wrong however. Prost. -- George Orwell III (talk) 00:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I found more differences using a "new" page diff (splitting the paragraphs of my text to match CR's formatting, which made it easier to spot the differences). I'm going to listen to the C-SPAN2 recordings one more time, cross-checking with the page diff, and will report my results here. - dcljr (talk) 05:50, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

[back to left margin]
OK, I've listened again (to the YouTube videos linked to in my original comment above) and actually found one more difference I hadn't detected the first time. I am convinced now that all of the differences below are real and not the result of typos on my part or flaws in (or intentional editing of) the recording. (It would be nice if someone else could use a different copy of the C-SPAN2 broadcast to verify these discrepancies.) Here are the differences I found (for ease of comparison, I have adopted CR's capitalization, where necessary):

CR text C-SPAN2 recording additional notes (dcljr)
studied its roots and gloried in studied its roots. I have gloried in
its Founders and Framers its Founders and its Framers
is the image of American one of is the image of America one of typo? — "American" isn't what he said, nor does it make sense grammatically
The image of America has changed. The image of America, Madam President, has changed. this one can't just be because CR omits references to the presiding officer as a matter of style (my first suspicion), because McCain's remarks in response contain a "Madam President" right in the middle of them (in the CR text)
The case this administration The case that this administration
in over 60 nations in more than 60 nations
brutality seen on September 11th brutality seen on September 11 missed it the first time, but to my ear he definitely says "eleven" and not "eleventh"
is not just due to is not just to while there is some "bumping/rubbing of the microphone" sound at approximately this point in the recording, it doesn't appear to be obscuring the word "due"; I think he just doesn't say it; this seems simply to have been a mistake on his part
the danger at home? the danger here at home?
a nation which ignores and berates a nation that ignores and berates
will pray for the safety of will pray, pray, pray for the safety of this difference is very curious, since the repetition was clearly intentional and done for rhetorical effect

For convenience sake, I've again changed the article to reflect these differences and then reverted myself, so people can more easily see the differences. I'm not sure the {{SIC}} template is really the correct way to note these on the page, since most are not so much typos as just plain mistakes in transcription. So I'll leave it to someone else to mark up the page, as appropriate. George (or someone else familiar with how things are done around here), could you see if you agree with my analysis and, if so, make the changes? - dcljr (talk) 07:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh no, most of those differences are too varied to use SIC so that is no longer an option. Otherwise, your transcription is what I'm hearing too - save the one point you make on the mic drop-out & the word due. I'm inclined to believe that I heard the word the first or second time when I listened to just the audio before looking at the video with the audio together. I only started questioning myself afterwards and that spiraled into a state where I just can't let it go either way. I'm inclined to keep it only because that's what is in the CR than anything else.
At any rate, the differences are such that not much, if anything, is lost in the overall perception of the speech & it's message (in my opinion). One could argue the inflection of pray 3x is significant somehow but I'm not in that camp. And I concur American vs. America is probably a typo for the same gramatical reasons. Like I said earlier - the point was not to dispute your claim or the possibility of differences existing between the previous "transcribed" text and the actual video but to point out that comparisons made against copies provided by third parties really won't prove anything or matter to most folks in the grand scheme of things. Still, I'm one who believes in being exact and expect as much from things like the C. Record, so you have expanded my knowledge at the very least in this matter if anything.
Since we are still faced with the issue of dealing with published texts here on WS and not audio & video so much, my suggestion is to clean up your table of findings, add a new section under the TextInfo box detailing those findings and make sure to point to the CSPAN in both the Notes section after, etc. Hopefully the next potential reader will accept your findings without having to (re)prove everything based on your new section. -- George Orwell III (talk) 08:28, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
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