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July MCEdit

Would you mind running the July Monthly Challenge, I'm swamped irl. Languageseeker (talk) 01:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: me too, but I'll sort something out. Poke me if I have forgot something and tweak the source list as you want when it exists. The month change-over point is still manual so expect a small bump on the 1st of the month again. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 06:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
OK, the basics are set up (main page, cat and data table). I haven't added much, feel free to chuck in a couple more (but I think not too many, since a couple of series will complete volumes soon) Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 08:33, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
@Languageseeker: July MC now live and stats for June generated: 2051 pages. :-D Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 02:59, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Page:A Forest Hymn.djvu/17Edit

This was flagged as misnested.

I've marked it as 'problematic' (and others in the same Index also flagged) because I can't see a clean solution to getting even an approximation of the layout without some considerable hassle.

Do you have a suggestion on how it might be done? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:10, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: I don't really, no. This formatting is extremely hard to replicate in HTML/CSS and I have never thought of a good way to robustly implement it. All our templates like {{overfloat image}} and so on a thoroughly broken when it comes to mobile and exporting. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 15:58, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

OCR visibility on changes feedbackEdit

Hello, would you be open to doing a user session to give feedback on OCR changes? It could entail a phone or video call with some questions on my end. Thanks for your proactive communications. Take care! NRodriguez (WMF) (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@NRodriguez (WMF): Sure, I'd love to. Most afternoons European time work for me, but I might not be around at the end of this week. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 23:02, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Let me know if afternoon Thursday or Friday would work, or if Monday may be an option. Thank you! Feel free to write me to nrodriguez@wikimedia dot org NRodriguez (WMF) (talk) 18:19, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Old English SoliloquiesEdit

Hi Inductiveload. You may remember chatting to me about Old English on Wikisource c. 2 months ago. I've been proofreading this text, Index:King Alfred's Old English version of St. Augustine's Soliloquies - Hargrove - 1902.djvu, and have done the whole main text. I might need some help to continue - I certainly will for validation. Do you know any active users with an interest in Old and Middle English? You mentioned on the Scriptorium that I might be able to suggest this for Monthly Challenge. What do you think? Regards Rho9998 (talk) 22:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

@Rho9998: I'm afraid I don't know of anyone off the top of my head.
This work is particularly tricky due to the parallel Latin translation on each page, so good work getting it to the current state. It should be possible to transclude at least the Old English now. You can nominate at Wikisource:Community collaboration/Monthly Challenge/Nominations and see what others think. It's borderline for me due to the difficulty of Old English for most people, but since it's already mostly proofread, you may find interest. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 21:02, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
@Inductiveload: I'm not sure that it would be appropriate for the biography month? Would it include autobiography? Augustine's Soliloquies is sometimes considered the predecessor of the Confessions, which is often considered the first autobiography (in Western tradition anyway). I might argue my case. In the meantime, by the way, I'm proofreading an OE text which uses acute accents on the vowels a and o. Would you be able to add these to the OME special character board SVP? Rho9998 (talk) 11:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Web development kinda sucks…Edit

This breaks at line 40 in Safari due to this. Sigh. Xover (talk) 18:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

@Xover: Have you tried using a computer rather than a speak-and-spell with delusions of grandeur? :-D (but oh go on then) Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 20:54, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Don't go there. Just… don't go there. Xover (talk) 21:42, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

And a little bonus weirdness: c:Special:Diff/576257724. Before the change MediaWiki:Gadget-Fill Index.js failed silently; afterwards it fills as normal. I didn't trace it to the root cause, but I'm guessing the regex ends up grabbing "Creator:Kate Douglas Wiggin}}{{Creator:Nora Archibald Smith" and then later bails thinking its gotten garbage data. A non-greedy match might plaster over it short term. --Xover (talk) 22:25, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

@Xover: Nothing so simple, though actually there was a sneaky greedy match too. The actual issue was in the DIY template tokeniser: Special:Diff/11522895. It's dirty, dirty code, but somewhat handy. Perhaps Parsoid will help here one day. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 23:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Or rather, I don't see, which amounts to the same thing. Yeah, that's pretty yucky; but unavoidable so long as we don't have a proper structured data store and a smart GUI for entering bibliographic metadata. Sigh, one day… I don't suppose you've run across any decent JS lib to access Wikidata yet?
Incidentally, throwing something (anything) into the console whenever you have code that bails out otherwise silently makes these issues much easier to track down. With all the minification and loaders and stuff (every script shows up as "load.php" in the debugger) I'm also getting inclined towards religiously including the script name and other identifying stuff in a comment at the top. Maybe even a convention to start dumping debug logs if there's "debug" in the URL? Because this particular issue aside (custom parsers are always going to be dense), most issues run into in the wild are pretty easily traced in the script logic itself, so most of the effort actually tends to be in peeling away the MW-specific stuff. Hmm. In fact, wouldn't it be neat if the URL param made MW set a wgDebug variable or something… Xover (talk) 08:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Oh, and another thing you might want to do the next time fiddle with Fill index.js: Commons uses c:Template:City to wrap locations for localization purposes. Not a lot of people use it so it doesn't show up much in the wild, but in theory it ought to be used. And when it is, Fill index ends up putting "{{City|New York City}}" in the Index. I'm the only one I've run across that uses it, so definitely not a high priority issue. Xover (talk) 08:16, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
It actually does spew if it chokes on not finding a Book template. The issue is that the borked template parser (it only happened if you had }}{{ in the parameter) reported that the template ended after the Translator parameter. So it looked valid, just really empty.
A better suite of "gadget utils" code would be handy (e.g. modular, levelled debug and consistent "registration"). One for the Infinite List of Infinite Infinities.
I've cut out {{city}}. That said most people don't even move the city to the city field, since the IA dumps it in publisher. Cough.
Re WD, I can't even get them to agree on the schema for their bibliographic data! Best advice so far: do it without asking and if you get far enough it becomes the schema.
Cheers, Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 09:25, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

A BIG thanks for your help with the Bodleian Library scans!Edit

A really BIG thanks for your help with the scans. The project is developing quickly, thanks to your quick, positive input! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 09:47, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Llywelyn2000: You're welcome! Let me know if I can do anything else. BTW, WS:Scan Lab is now a Thing (TM). Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 10:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Internet Archive transfer to CommonsEdit

I've been approached by an editor who would like to work on old Welsh ballads (pre 1900). There are c. 1,700 "Welsh+ballads"&page=2 here on IA. You mentioned recently the tool, but I think that it's for single djvu file, rather than batch transfer? If there is a batch transfer tool, please let me know, and if it automatically does OCR, then so much the better! Or maybe I wish too much! Thanks again! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 09:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Llywelyn2000: Indeed, IA-Upload is really for single files on a manual basis.
For a large bulk import from the IA of this kind, probably the best best is to ask commons:User:Fæ, who has imported over 1 million files with their bot. The bot will only upload the PDF (there is no DjVu at the IA), but it will have the existing IA OCR in it. Since the IA correctly set the language to Welsh, that OCR should be fairly good (example: Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 10:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Whow! Thanks Inductiveload! I've worked with in the past, who is so efficient with his work. I'll pop round and ask him now! Thanks again! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 11:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)


Remind me… Why do we keep these in Gadget-Site.css instead of having RL load them whenever the page numbers gadget is loaded? Xover (talk) 09:20, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

@Xover: Was going to say I guess so that the defaults are applied even if there's no JS support, but that makes no sense since those elements are applied by JS. I have no idea. Maybe I'll move them into MediaWiki:Gadget-PageNumbers-core.css one day. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 14:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Also… Much of the actual flakiness of pagenumbers comes from those inserted elements, and hoisting entire blocks around (usually after .ready has already fired). If you come up with any brilliant ideas for how we could get the proper HTML structure in place before pagenumbers.js goes to work I'm all ears. I'm even seriously mulling over whether the community would go for needing to put {{foo start}} and {{foo end}} on every single page (well, or the end one; the start we could jam into {{header}}); or, equally iffy but tempting, getting MW to output what we need directly (can PRP manipulate the whole page when it's being invoked?). After all, we just need a couple of empty containers inside #mw-content-text at parse/render time, and then pagenumbers.js could mostly be reduced to a simple stylesheet-switcher. And if we could rely on the containers being there, I think we could even split the page numbers stuff from the dynamic layouts stuff. Xover (talk) 16:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
@Xover: it’s possible (possible) that this could be done by the Wikisource extension (not PRP, as we really want control of all pages even if they don't use <pages/>) which could construct all that crap server-side. It is indeed a longer term goal of mine to move the layout stuff into that extension for wider reuse and better "performance" (in particular not having the flicker as the JS comes online). But first, I’m trying to generally sort all the junk out so that I can even visualise what is needed for that to happen. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 17:01, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
We'll get some flicker no matter what for users that have something other than the default layout set. But if we just apply a different stylesheet and don't force the browser to modify the DOM we'll get the benefit of all the browser's built-in optimizations for this kind of thing. Hmm. Actually… this gives me an idea. Maybe we don't actually need all those #fooContainers? The page numbers are absolutely positioned anyway so maybe we could just stuff them over in the gutters. That'd (and moving the CSS out of JS) make this a whole lot cleaner. Maybe. Xover (talk) 18:25, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Porcine lipstickEdit

aka. Module:Table style. Test cases very welcome at Template:Table style/testcases. Trigger for finally getting off my posterior on this: 11544324. The performance improvements should actually be pretty massive (even with the horribly inefficient table copy that's repeated on every invocation), and finally empty out Category:Pages where node count is exceeded. Xover (talk) 16:40, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

That's a clear example of where TemplateStyles provides a major win.
If I had to do that table, I’d use {{TOC begin}} and co, since they delegate nearly all of their formatting to TemplateStyles via classes on each row of the table. Alternatively, an index- or page-local CSS can be set up and that "raw" table targeted with a class like ._mayan_toc.
Repeated use of either {{ts}} or style= is a code smell now we have TemplateStyles. {{ts}} in particular has gotten way out of hand since it was written way back when. Inductiveloadtalk/contribs 17:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh, yes, it’s definitely lipstick on the pig. This is just a stop-gap until we come up with a plausible alternative and to make existing pathological uses not blow up. Xover (talk) 18:05, 30 July 2021 (UTC)