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Hello Tar-ba-gan, welcome to Wikisource! Thanks for your interest in the project; we hope you'll enjoy the community and your work here.

You'll find an (incomplete) index of our works listed at Wikisource:Works, although for very broad categories like poetry you may wish to look at the categories like Category:Poems instead.

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Yann (talk) 09:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


Hello, Tar-ba-gan, and welcome to Wikisource! Thank you for joining the project. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Again, welcome!


Index:Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China.djvuEdit

I have added the newer welcome message above, especially as it gives helpful links to show the modern way that we have been transcribing works at Wikisource.

I have uploaded the djvu scan of the work in which you have been undertaking transcription that allows us to further verify text. I invite you to look to utilise that going forward. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Linking through to the page namespace is not how we would encourage the work to be done.This edit if followed drops someone straight into the Page: ns, and that is not we try to do with out works. We consider the page namespace a working namespace only for where contributors fix the text on the page, then uch pages are then transcluded into the main namespace. To link to a page we would put in place a link to where the transcluded page will be, eg. "Work name/Chapter XX#nn" where the nn is the actual page number. I will try to do some quick examples on the work for you to see what I mean. — billinghurst sDrewth 14:38, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
I have a little better understanding after having a hack at the table of contents. Generally what we have been trying to do in the main namespace is to replicate the work itself, without embellishment; sort of remain true to the original production. Our current practice would be to look to transclude the opening pages of the work as the initial pages to display onto the lead pages of the work, eg. as a recent example of one of mine A Critical Examination of Dr G. Birkbeck Hills "Johnsonian" Editions. I have been through and converted the ToC into a table which allows for a neater presentation form, and removed the links on the page numbers, as in our form of the work where we link to chapters, it is pretty well superfluous. What we want to ensure is that when the work is validated that we run get the Index crosslinked so entries can be hyperlinked, and we already have a couple of people who can do that for us. — billinghurst sDrewth 15:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of ChinaEdit

Thanks for giving some detailed explanations. I appreciate it. I am definitely down with the transclusion of the original Contents because it is very neat and "original".

I am sorry that at this stage I am reluctant to change my mode of work on the subject. There are reasons as follows:

  • This is a damn large volume to edit: over 800 pages. I need direct links to as many pages and sections as possible in order to work on them and not get bored.
  • The original Contents list given in this work is faulty. A lot of sections that occupy several pages are not attested to in the Contents, even when they have general title, such as the chapters you referred to. The "leading residents" sections are present in the Contents for Shanghai alone, while even Hongkong has 4 distinct chapters for that, and somehow they do not follow each other.
  • The structure of the book is not as logical as it could be. Apart from the aforementioned 4 different chapters of biographies given for Hongkong with Harbour and Shipping separating them, the general sections are as follows:
    • Introduction
    • Hongkong -
    • China General (not stated in Contents as such) -
    • Shanghai (including Meteorology of Hongkong) -
    • Other cities, where Macao includes a subchapter "Lappa Customs" attested to in the contents, but it is not evident from Contents that it is a Macao subchapter. Macao biographies and locations after Lappa Customs are not attested to and not having titles for the related subchapters)
Okay, I will have a look at the work a little more closely to see what other things we can do to, to get what you want, and look to maintain some of our ideas around the reproduction, especially when it probably better portrays the work. There are some other tricks. I completely understand the aspects about not wanting to be bored.

What I intend on doing is making the book readable as "long pages" (interlinked) as well as "short pages" (interlinked). The example may be found here: Author:Ts'o Seen Wan. Some of my reasons are that

  • I observe this book as an encyclopedia in its own right, where the editors or publishers failed to come up with consistent methodology for combining entries into clusters / for sorting them. Wikisource allows to make each individual entry to become more accessible (which the original edition failed to do despite the index in the end).
  • The value of this book (shared with the other books of XXth Century Impression series by the same author(s)) is that it provides images together with individual descriptions (biographies, buildings, etc.).

I have yet to come up with an idea as to how I should be finally presenting the contents of that book. Transclusion of the Contents should be where you put it, but it should have alternatives for the above reason that a lot of sections are just not being included.

I will take some time off from my other bits, and see whether I can bring some suggestions.

I am sorry, it is 1:30 am in China now so I have to go offline and cut my reasoning short. My nearest plans are to work on portraits of Hongkong people from the book (there are several dozen). I believe I have some friends here who might be personally interested in seeing them. I would very much appreciate your assessment and help with my other uploads (visit my userpage please), especially

Not a problem, I am only a few hours ahead of you, and was doing a very late night.
  • Lhasa and Central Tibet that is occasionally blocked from my access because of where I am.
  • I do not believe I will be working on Japanese Gardens in the next couple of years so I need to get someone else interested because it is a beautiful book, and
  • I have problems renaming English Adventurers where I uploaded a 1917 edition instead of the first, 1914 edition as I stated in the file name.

Please keep up your good works, Tar-ba-gan (talk) 17:42, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I will take a look at these, and might drop a few pointers to others, over the next week or so; better that we get a good framework for the existing work as the priority. The works sound like they drag us away from some of normal (tunnel) vision. Some might make good suggestions for Wikisource:Proofread of the Month.

people who can do that for usEdit

You wrote:

What we want to ensure is that when the work is validated that we run get the Index crosslinked so entries can be hyperlinked, and we already have a couple of people who can do that for us.

I am sorry I do not quite understand what you mean, specifically

  1. who are the people you are talking about and what exactly they do
  2. how this can be applied to the Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China

Best regards, --Tar-ba-gan (talk) 17:58, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The work has index at the end, which references specific pages. One of our contributors has a script that will wikilink the page references to the pages, though he prefers to do that only when the work has been validated.

I am sorry if some of my statements looked arrogant. I admire your solitary support of what I am doing in this wikispace, that included such major steps as uploading a djvu file for the book I was interested in (so I owe you the very fact I am working on the whole book and not its Flora of Hongkong chapter that was my primary interest). I would have never come up with an entry for Author:Arnold Wright or his obituary. When I am thinking how many authors are involved in writing of Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China I cannot help shrugging. One of them, Author:Stephen Troyte Dunn, was the reason for finding this book. --Tar-ba-gan (talk) 18:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The author components I did see and I love having works for obscure authors, and digging up some biographical data for them. It is definitely an area where I will be providing some assistance as I can. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:28, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Great! I am interested in obscure authors too. You can use me for assistance with Russians or Chinese. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 12:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello Billinghurst, there some are vague authors, I had difficulty learning about them, can you help?
H. A. Cartwright
M. T. Mansfield
H. W. Emerson
TIA, Tar-ba-gan (talk) 05:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Re. Index:Early English adventurers in the East (1917).djvuEdit

Hi Tar-ba-gan,

I was just passing by when I happened to see your query about this index. Sorry if I'm putting my ({{xxx-larger}}) nose into things that don't concern me, but I just wanted to say that this had once happened to me as well. (See Index:The Vicomte de Bragelonne.djvu and Index:The Vicomte de Bragelonne 2.djvu.) What I had done that time was to leave the other file alone and upload the file again under another name. However, I'm not at all sure that that's the solution of the problem. In fact, I don't even know what causes the problem. It would be best to wait till Billinghurst replies to you. (Btw, this looks like a really silly response, so please excuse me.) Sincerely—Clockery Fairfield (talk·contribs) 16:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Clockery, I appreciate the fact you care. I am comparatively new on en.wikisource, so your attention to my issues is very much appreciated. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 16:41, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi again. Thanks, though taking my advice in most matters is the equivalent of dropping a Mentos into a Diet Coke. Use it at your own peril.   Sincerely—Clockery Fairfield (talk·contribs) 12:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi. I saw there is also Index:Early English Adventurers in the East by Arnold Wright (1914).pdf, which I guess is just another edition (with also pages in Page:ns). Is the 1917 is to be preferred? Shall the other version be deleted as redundant? Can you pls advise as you have been involved in both indexes? Bye--Mpaa (talk) 13:16, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Hello Mpaa, it was actually the same edition, if you can, please delete it. It is a collection of mistakes that I made, being fresh at that operation: uploading PDF instead of DJVU, naming it erroneously as 1914 instead of 1917 (well, I did not know that book had a second edition), and later not being able to adequately tag it for deletion. TIA, Tar-ba-gan (talk) 15:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi, Tar-ba-gan. I've marked the 1914 index with {{sdelete}} as per creator's request. If you don't want it to be deleted now, just remove the template. A quick question—did you upload the file on WS or on Commons? Sincerely—Clockery Fairfield (talk·contribs) 15:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
WS. I do want it to be deleted. Thanks, Tar-ba-gan (talk) 16:04, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
  Done . —Clockery Fairfield (talk·contribs) 16:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Template talk:Dotted TOC page listing/bottomEdit


Please see my comments in the above and the changes here and here.

I hope this is the effect you were wishing to achieve. Regards, MODCHK (talk) 22:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I find that I did not understand the instructions on template documentation pages. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 03:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


Hello, Tar-ba-gan. You have new messages at Wylve's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

--Wylve (talk) 20:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I've responded to your message. --Wylve (talk) 14:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
I've proofread the two pages. --Wylve (talk) 15:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Pages marked 'Problematic' in PSM Volume 60Edit

Hi. I am curious why you marked several pages as ’Problematic’ like this one. I proofread the first and I found your work flawless.— Ineuw talk 17:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no limit to perfection. However, I tried to finalize the article you referred to. I only created 1 more author page as a result. Please check. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 06:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Very professional. Again, thanks for your contributions.— Ineuw talk 14:56, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the compliments. I still believe I do not know as many wikitags as you do. Btw, if there is anything specific that you might wish me to help with, with topics not far from the items I am already working on, I will be glad to assist. Best regards, Tar-ba-gan (talk) 16:09, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Your projects of interestEdit

I looked at the projects listed on your page and would like to contribute occasionally to topics of shared interest, specifically, to upload the missing images. At the moment, I am referring to the US Navy series of ports around the world, like the Index:Ports of the world - Canton (1920).djvu. However, I need to know where the file comes from. Can you provide the link? — Ineuw talk 17:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for caring! All the files I use on English wikisource come from I am afraid I cannot be more specific. The book about Canton is really a picture book, and is additionally interesting because of the initials that are individually drawn. I would appreciate your help with it, although it is far from the problem that the book Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China is giving me. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 18:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China is no problem, I already downloaded the high definition .JP2 images form IA and will sort them out. But this will take awhile since I do this as a distraction from PSM. I will look (again) on IA for the Canton booklet.— Ineuw talk 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Should be this: Tar-ba-gan (talk) 18:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Got it, thanks.— Ineuw talk 18:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Hope that you’re not upset because of the changes - which were as follows: Uploaded the file to the Commons under THIS NAME because it’s part of a series and, others like myself, would/will like to add other books of the series later. Then, copied all your work to the new version from both the Page and the Main namespaces. Finally, I am at the point of looking at the missing images. FYI, it’s important that works are stored on the Commons and not on Wikisource. In all matters, uploading, Commons permissions, my changes to your work, etc., If you have a question please let me know. BTW, all links on WS were directed to the new file name. — Ineuw talk 01:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Great! Yes I hope this this may become a more popular project. If we find other booklets of the series, that is. I would be specifically interested in all ports of China they have (primarily Shanghai and Hongkong). If not (I was only able to find some 3 Ports of the World books on, I would rather start Project Guangzhou or Project Canton, or Cantonese Project (to include Hongkong and Guangdong Province). Tar-ba-gan (talk) 05:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
The uploaded images are stored in commons:Category:Ports of the world - Canton (1920 book).— Ineuw talk 06:22, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

A final note for the dayEdit

Inserted one type of image layout each to demonstrate the use of the new {{FreedImg}} (FI) template. I leave the rest upto you. Also want to mention that I have saved some pages as proofread, when in fact they weren’t completely checked. Please look them over . . . and again if you have any questions, leave a message or a note on my talk page.— Ineuw talk 06:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Images for one of your projectsEdit

Began uploading the images to commons:Category:Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China (book), but it's going to be a very long haul. There are an estimated 1,000 images and I am doing a couple of dozen every few days. But, at least you have something to work with.— Ineuw talk 06:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

This is great, thanks! I am currently on holiday (changing China to Russia) and not on my computer most of the time. Will get back to putting images into all the right pages some time around September 10. I really appreciate your help a lot! Without it I was thinking this job could never be completed. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 22:58, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Duplications on the commons plus other issues.Edit

Please read my previous post above regarding the commons gallery for your Twentieth Century China Treaty ports project.

Correct me if I am wrong but I remember your asking me to help you upload images and I began doing just that. But now we are duplicating work and categories. I will longer interfere as I see that you have taken over the image work and I have plenty of other things on my plate.

Some unsolicited advice: For the duplicate images and categories, somebody on the commons will eventually notice it and it's best that you decide which category you use and organize your work. This project has about 1,000 images and the way things look now, you are generating unnecessary extra work for the commons staff.

The images in my scheme are named so that they appear in .djvu numerical order (easy to find) and the names also double as the image descriptions. This worked very well in the past and met the commons image upload criteria of descriptive names and descriptions (two flies and one swat). There is a short explanation as to why things were done the way they were. Also, on WS we don't use "thumb" framed images accompanying the text, and it's best that you use the {{FreedImg}} template which is very versatile for image placement and captioning. You can find numerous centered and offset image examples with various description styles in the PSM volumes 15 & 16.

I hope this helps. — — Ineuw talk 07:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

It is true that some months ago I uploaded some images to Commons for the book. This did not go well, proved too time-consuming for me and my system was not very consistent, so it started being a mess, and I eventually stopped. I am sorry I had never told you about that when asking for help. Thank you for all the advice. I definitely need to establish a better system of working with images for WS. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 13:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
From your reply not sure if I understand correctly. Do you wish me to continue to upload and merge your images into the category I created, or do you wish to continue on your own? — Ineuw talk 03:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


Hello, Tar-ba-gan. You have new messages at Wylve's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

--Wylve (talk) 14:12, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Twentieth Century Treaty Ports imagesEdit

Hi. Images' upload for this project is completed. Good luck.— Ineuw talk 19:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Moving Your Files to Wikimedia CommonsEdit

Don't worry. He's watching your back. And yes, he's hosted on Commons.

Hello Tar-ba-gan!

First, thank you for your contributions to Wikisource. Any contributions are always very much appreciated. While searching around, I noticed that you have some files that you uploaded to Wikisource that would probably serve the community better if it was on Wikimedia Commons, a media file repository. You can view your files to see which ones I'm referring to. See the Image Guidelines for more information.

Why should you do this?

As an example, let's pretend you extracted a hard-to-find image from a book written in 1870. If you upload it to Wikisource, only Wikisource users can use it. What if a user from Japan is writing an article about a similar topic? If your file is on Wikisource, it's unlikely he'll find it, and if he's lucky enough to find it, he still won't be able to use it easily. However, if you uploaded it to Commons, it's much more likely he'll find it and be able to use it. (Files hosted on Commons are accessible from any sister project) The same goes for any PDF or DJVU files you upload as well.

Note: To "move" a page from Wikisource to Commons is simple, but somewhat confusing if you don't know how to. First, upload the file to Commons with the same file name as you did here. Add the same information, making sure you put in the correct license. I suggest adding the {{Wikisource image}} template to its Commons page. Then edit the file's page at Wikisource and add the template {{Now Commons}}. Soon an administrator will complete the "move" by deleting the Wikisource copy (as it's no longer needed). You don't need to change any tags on Wikisource as they'll automatically point to the new file. Awesome!

If you have any questions or concerns, don't be afraid to ask.

The Haz talk 04:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Primes in Wade-GilesEdit

Hi Tar-ba-gan. Is there a reason to use primes rather than apostrophes for the Wade-Giles transcriptions in Chinese Life in the Tibetan Foothills? They look like apostrophes to me in the scanned images, and Wikipedia says that Wade-Giles uses apostrophes. But I'm no expert—should they actually be primes? Mr. Granger (talk) 17:03, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello! Thanks for your good job! I am sorry, I do not know any good reasons, for me it is all the same since there is just one uniform symbol used in transcription. I believe it was User:Wylve who used to do exactly the same contribution on that book, who took care to change apostrophes to something else earlier. I had good faith in his edits, and just carried on doing the same. You might wish to ask him why apostrophes seem to be inadequate. I am sure there is some good explanation to it. BR, Tar-ba-gan (talk) 17:11, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi. Technically speaking, Wade-Giles does not use apostrophes, but a symbol called ayn (ʽ). This symbol cannot be directly inserted using a normal QWERTY keyboard. When I do transcriptions, I follow the convention carried out by the scan, regardless of their adherence to the Wade-Giles romanization. I would discourage the use of the prime symbol, unless the scan uses it as well. --Wylve (talk) 12:01, 20 March 2014 (UTC)


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Wylve (talk) 01:28, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

An author in questionEdit

Hi. Just for my own benefit, how do you know that Joseph Chamberlain was the author of of this article? I looked everywhere, especially at the US Library of Congress and found no mention that he traveled to the north or wrote books. — Ineuw talk 04:27, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I understand how this may be confusing. It took me some research. I decided to resolve the issue of having multiple "initials only" authors that day, and this is my search history: Chamberlain Lapland, which does not return the exact article title, but page 2 of the search definitely states Joseph had been there and it was meaningful enough to be in his biography at Now, in the article itself (check note at bottom of page) it is said,

From an article entitled "A Visit to Lapland, with Notes on Swedish Licensing," Fortnightly Review, December, 1876.

And the latter title makes search a lot more precise: Joseph Chamberlain "A Visit to Lapland". I did an extra thing reading through this paper I found in the search results: Chamberlain Family Collection at Birmingham University web site. Best regards, Tar-ba-gan (talk) 06:23, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Now that I think about it (it was a while ago), "C Chamberlain Lapland" search was what actually returned that Birmingham University family paper collection in the first place, and later I verified the identity of the author by more searches. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 06:39, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I wear no hat, but will to put on one so that I can take it off for you. I learned something very important. Thanks for the instructions.— Ineuw talk 06:51, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I had not been thinking about instructions, honestly, and I was very flattered by the what you said, so much that I could not respond with coherence immediately :-) My work mostly concerns a very specal interest, and I tend to think it hardly ever gets noticed. I think it was my prior experience on that had taught me there were a lot of family trees/family archive descriptions available online, and the information in them is sometimes quite enough to resolve questions. There were puzzles that could be solved because litterati normally have people around them who sort out old papers and documents. I am also embarrassed coz I have no idea how to usen the US Library of Congress. BR, Tar-ba-gan (talk) 07:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)


Hi Tar-ba-gan, I've noticed that you left a talkback message on my talk page, but I can't seem to find the message addressed to me. What is it that you want to discuss? —Wylve (talk) 09:36, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Completing your selections of interestsEdit

Hi. I noticed your recent post and feel free to complete any article you wish. . . . . especially, The Popular Science Monthly Project articles.  . Editors wishing to retain articles for completion by themselves should save the page using either {{Under construction}} or {{In use}} templates.— Ineuw talk 18:07, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

May I have your opinions with regards this page, please?Edit


I proofread the above page before it occurred to me the two images fitted together into a single map (to view this effect edit the page and preview, because the default browse view is too narrow and the images wrap... this is also why I specified the two images with slightly different sizes so they "kind of" fit. See edit history.) Now my question is this: do you think This page ought to "match the book layout" (i.e. split images) or should the map be presented as a reassembled, single image? There are a few other pages which could be similarly affected so I'll stop for a while until you let me know if you have a preferred way of proceeding.

Regards, AuFCL (talk) 10:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I think you came to some perfect solution, because it maintains original layout on most displays (or I believe so) but displays a continous image. I transcluded some chapters to observe what it looked like: Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China/Hongkong (Descriptive)
It takes me a bit long to understand. Are you talking about creating a new single image file out of two or more? I am not sure. I remember I had consulted someone about what to do with misplaced images (some images are 2 pages away from the paragraph they illustrate), and I was told that I should transclude text and images separately in these cases, so that images match text when transcluded, but match page otherwise. Following this logic, you might use separate images in pages, and use a new "reassembled" image in transcluded pages.
Personally, if I were still attempting to work on cutting images, I would have cared more about cutting rather than merging images, for the following reason: there are a lot of items and especially persons that I would like to be transcluded separately, as a kind of a dictionary or encyclopedia. And these people / places could go with their own image instead of a collective photo...
Generally, I am happy you care about this book at all, so whatever you do is fine. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 13:45, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
By good fortune your transclusion above captured my "other experiment in craziness", being the combined result of page 150 and page 151. The two panoramic shots fit together this way, whereas the "true-to-the-book" approach slices them such that a casual reader might think two "slices" are not even captioned. If you can cope with this I'll carry on in similar fashion unless it gets just too mad.

As Ineuw has done such a superb job on the images (I have only found one I needed to add that he had missed so far) I have no intention of making fundamental changes to his system. Just occasionally as you have just seen the opportunity arises that a bit of careful formatting can place two separate file-images adjacent to one another so that the final result approximates a single image. As quite a few of the montages contain sub-images skewed from the vertical I think attempting to break them up would be detrimental to the result at best and in any case I have tried to compensate by giving similarly "uneven" captioning to the book (e.g.) to as clearly indicate which sub-image is being captioned as possible.

I probably should have made this point earlier but as you may have noticed I am attempting to attack the pages marked "Problematic" first. If that makes my edits look rather random I hope you now know why. Good to hear you appear to be generally happy with the results so far. Please continue to keep an eagle eye out for any aberrations I miss (or accidentally create! I have spotted the occasional—say "u"/"ū"/"ü"—case where I have been a little uncertain which alternative to choose.) AuFCL (talk) 22:47, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your involvement, and explanations! I will keep an eye on the ü's, it may be more like what I normally do on Wikisource (example of a page w/ special chars).
Do you think using hairspace is a good idea? I used to like it, because it looks so nice in Firefox, but now I am finding it may not be good in all browsers. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 03:01, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
PS yes I noticed the HK panoramas, great job! (while most of the buildings in the book do not exist anymore, the rugged misty shores of HK is something I see every 3 months or so, even if I come there for an hour). Tar-ba-gan (talk) 03:07, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Ooo. Italics and diacritics—nightmares! Regarding the hairspaces I too am using F/F so do not mind. However I believe Beeswaxcandle(?) mentioning hairspaces messing up certain epub readers and so I have tended not to use them except when somebody else has already set the precedent (as you have in this case.) AuFCL (talk) 03:58, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I guess it is the time I stop (not sure if it is going to affect 100% books I work on but the Hongkong book is sure the case). I finally used someone's Internet Explorer to see how it just looks ugly (blue frame around each hairspace). I did not know about epub, thanks for telling. I have a lot of other things to format, that are higher priority (say, in my case special chars in abundance in 2 high-priority books, and all over Sacred Books of the East where I am interested in half a dozen volumes). The Hongkong book is just too large to care about things like this. I won't care to remove those hairspaces already done. You are welcome to use them or not. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 04:25, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
It is incredible what you did, all this obsolete taxonomy typed in! I can hardly believe. I spent quite some time earlier today just establishing the spelling for some of those butterflies. Have you learned Latin or some serious age-old Biology?
On a related note, I think most or all images in this book (except for small ones that we have a few or do not have at all) look best centered on the page, dividing the text. I am using small monitors, and horizontally oriented images never look good if they are left- or right-aligned with text on the side. Also, it makes the whole task simpler, or so it seems to me. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 10:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
(If the above was intended for me?) I noticed some image adjustments. As I happened to start on maps I got into the habit of setting everything 600px which I began to realise is too large for just about everything else. Would it be acceptable if I do any future images as 400px centred (i.e. irrespective of the scan layouts) and perhaps anything "landscape" (maps, panoramas etc.) can be 600px? I noticed Ineuw seems to like 430px which I haven't quite figured out the reason for. AuFCL (talk) 10:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I am sorry I am still using my discussion page instead of yours (it was intended for you and I should have done it on your talk page). Whatever image width you consider good, is fine with me. Yes, centered is the best for reasons I brought up above. Thanks for your good works! Tar-ba-gan (talk) 11:53, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for formatting and especially for pointing out the turtle image is misplaced in the book. WHen we have all images centered, it is easy to transclude the turtle to a more appropriate place. It is a regular feature of this book. Look at Mr. Mody, his picture is in the middle of the previous page. I haven't found out though how to best transclude the chunks of text that result (with an irrelevant break now) when I transclude a section without a central portion though (Mody's picture was breaking up this section). Tar-ba-gan (talk) 12:00, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Lotus SutraEdit

I saw your recent edit on Lotus Sutra and read an example of your input at Commons. I appreciate your efforts to produce a complete digital copy of this book, because the version published by Sacred Texts (and several copies of this version on the internet) does include the diacritics but it does not include the pagination, introduction and notes. The complete versions of this book at the Internet Archive are very large PDF files that are unsuitable for e-readers. It might be a good idea to include the original pagination. This could assist readers in citing passages from the LS. JimRenge (talk) 09:39, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the links and advice Jim! Now I know what to do if I am tired of diacritics, just copy them.
As for pagination, it is there. Inside the chapters, page numbers are on the left from the text. You can also observe the Index file page that allows me to work on pages one by one, and others to evaluate the work progress. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 09:44, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, you might just focus on adding the notes, appendices etc. The diacritics in the notes, intro and appendices will be enough trouble. Cheers JimRenge (talk) 09:58, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Page access and image name for the Twentieth Century projectEdit

To simplify your editing and image issues, I created this this list which displays the image name and the page it's on. Page access with image names for the project Ineuw (talk) 23:19, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I noticed! Great job! Tar-ba-gan (talk) 04:42, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

I am now completely confused regarding Twentieth Century 840Edit

As far as I can tell in this change you:

  • validated the page (which indicates you are completely happy with the result); as well as
  • tagged it with {{missing image}} (which overtly contradicts the above point); whilst
  • removing the very image the prior point is apparently complaining about!

Pardon me if this judgement seems harsh, but just what do you want to actually do because I cannot draw any usable conclusions from this event. Did you want to move that final image outside section "s4" perhaps? AuFCL (talk) 23:00, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

No idea how that happened. I do not normally remove anything. Slip of hand? Or maybe servers that failed to show recent changes to me? I am even more confused than you, for I know I ain't got any cats to walk across my keyboard that may cause stuff like that. Sorry anyway. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 04:13, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
I apologize for butting in. I fixed it because I misunderstood this post completely, (not difficult for me to misunderstand) I also don't know how it happened perhaps the page editing history can shed some light? I also looked at the page earlier to check the running header --— Ineuw talk 05:16, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for taking care of it Ineuw, I appreciate it. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 05:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Another 20thC Impressions.. puzzleEdit


I noted you marked the above page "Problematic"; but apart from the wrapping not being too precise (which I hope I have now addressed) would you please be so kind as to detail what appears to be wrong with it? It seems O.K. now, so is there a browser issue, perhaps?

Regards, AuFCL (talk) 06:04, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

It is as simple as that. Mr. Medhurst and his position appear in different places, and I have not been able to fix that (owing to lack of concentration and that I am not familiar with the tagging that you are using in this particular instance). It is a minor thing, but enough to revert status to problematic. I am amazed at how swiftly you responded, this is great, since for my part I will be having less time to spend on Wikisource in the next 6 months. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 12:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Amusing aside: You might have noticed Medhurst was misplaced; the one which was bothering me was Lammert—I never noticed Medhurst at the time! This kind of wrapping problem can be incredibly sensitive to font size; and gets worse the larger the font chosen. Wrapping the names in width: CSS makes the entries immune to problems, but looks incredibly unwieldy and hard to separate content from control text. AuFCL (talk) 19:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Chapter headings in 'The Development of Navies During the Last Half-Century'Edit

Hullo. Just wondering if you’re going to add {{sp}} to all of the chapter headings of The Development of Navies During the Last Half-Century, as you did with chapter 4? Not that I have an opinion on whether they should be spaced or not! I'm not saying it's a prob, just thinking that all the chapters should be the same. :-) Thanks! — Sam Wilson ( TalkContribs ) … 06:52, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Done them all/ Tar-ba-gan (talk) 12:24, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Re: Help needed: Dotted Page Listing / Bottom dotend text problemEdit

I saw your question before you removed it again. I think the point was valid, even though the {{dotted TOC page listing}} family of templates is getting pretty complicated. /bottom simply lacked the code which the documentation indicated it ought to have, so I have pasted it in and the result (in this case) is this. I hope that is what you wanted? AuFCL (talk) 23:44, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes exactly! Thanks a lot! I understood it was about some careful copypasting between templates, but I do not do things like those these days, shorter attention span/ Tar-ba-gan (talk) 12:26, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Index:Japanese Gardens (Taylor).djvuEdit

Hi, I noticed that there were problems with the pdf version of this file that you uploaded a while back. So, I've replaced it with the djvu, which seems to be behaving much better. Have fun, Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:32, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! I feel embarrassed, you are being very kind. I stopped working on that book because of that pdf problem, so now some progress can be made. I never did this job myself because I decided that it was outside of my scope and has images, something I am not comfortable with these days at all. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 13:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

New Proposal Notification - Replacement of common main-space header templateEdit

Announcing the listing of a new formal proposal recently added to the Scriptorium community-discussion page, Proposals section, titled:

Switch header template foundation from table-based to division-based

The proposal entails the replacement of the current Header template familiar to most with a structurally redesigned new Header template. Replacement is a needed first step in series of steps needed to properly address the long time deficiencies behind several issues as well as enhance our mobile device presence.

There should be no significant operational or visual differences between the existing and proposed Header templates under normal usage (i.e. Desktop view). The change is entirely structural -- moving away from the existing HTML all Table make-up to an all Div[ision] based one.

Please examine the testcases where the current template is compared to the proposed replacement. Don't forget to also check Mobile Mode from the testcases page -- which is where the differences between current header template & proposed header template will be hard to miss.

For those who are concerned over the possible impact replacement might have on specific works, you can test the replacement on your own by entering edit mode, substituting the header tag {{header with {{header/sandbox and then previewing the work with the change in place. Saving the page with the change in place should not be needed but if you opt to save the page instead of just previewing it, please remember to revert the change soon after your done inspecting the results.

Your questions or comments are welcomed. At the same time I personally urge participants to support this proposed change. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:04, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Problem at Statement by the President on the Murder of Boris NemtsovEdit

Problem at Statement by the President on the Murder of Boris Nemtsov, and I know it's in the original by The White House, as well.

Why does it refer to "Boris Efimovich" ?

-- Cirt (talk) 16:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Ah, never mind, I see that was the full first part of his name. My misunderstanding. Thank you very much for this contribution to Wikisource! -- Cirt (talk) 16:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


Приглашаю вернуться к работе над проектом ЭЛ. Я залил новые более качественные сканы, все с текстовым слоем. Присоединяйтесь.--Silberrus (talk) 16:57, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

About Abbé HucEdit

It's no joke, but when I saw the books on IA, I was thinking of you since you like material about China. I also like it, but time is so short and there is so much to do.  Ineuw talk 02:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Great! I appreciate your help. I am in China so IA is only accessible via VPN while Wikimedia resources are mostly not editable via free proxies, which makes it complicated. This is gonna change in a month or so. Gonna go Russia and forget about these problems. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 10:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
What can I say, I am jealous. Enjoy your travels and keep safe.— Ineuw talk 15:43, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
No need to be jealous (I do not really suppose a lot of my own friends would agree to live/work like I have been doing either in Russia or China). Also, apparently got blocked in Russia a month after I arrived, which actually tells me to get more stuff from it. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Phrase Book in the Canton DialectEdit

Hi, I was really pleased somebody noticed what I was doing with China and the Manchus! I want to finish plowing through it by this weekend, so if it would be great if you'd care to validate whatever's left. — Anyway, I was poking around through your stuff and found the phrase book. Some of those handwritten characters are rather unusual. I noticed that on there's a more legible edition with pretty standard characters all nicely typeset. Would you consider changing the source file? If I could work from that one it'd be fairly easy to input the Chinese. For example on page 6 the last character in #11, in the typeset version is just the normal character for salt 鹽, but in the one you have it's an abbreviated handwritten form on the image, and my browser won't display the encoded character, whatever it is. Then in #18, the missing character is 爺 grandfather in the typset version, whereas the handwritten character is that plus the mouth radical which I can't find anywhere on the Unicode charts. I'm sure the handwritten characters are more interesting, but I wouldn't have the expertise to deal with the problematic ones. — BTW, Hakluytus is another thing I'm interested in working on, as it's frequently cited in an interesting history of Russia (the French translation of which was my main stimulus for getting involved with Wikisource), but working with that formatting is tough. (French Wikisource seems to display marginal notes a bit more simply.) I wonder if it'd be possible to edit the text in a more tractable way, and finish off the formatting at the end in a batch process. Sorry to intrude with all these comments, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Mudbringer (talk) 16:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for all the comments. It is great that you paid so much in-depth attention.
It is true that the non-standard chars are a problem. I am not sure the version that features handwriting, should be removed -- maybe saved for later? I mean, the problem of how modern standard corresponds to colloquialisms and individual writing styles may be of use for later researchers (I was actually thinking that this might further on inspire some new tools because I started experiencing problems while on Chinese Life in the Tibetan Foothills and keep on having them in Pekinese Rhymes). For making the progress now, the idea of switching to work on another source file with Chinese chars typed (without removing the file with handwriting) looks fine to me. What do you think?
Formatting is definitely a problem with Hakluytus Posthumus, given that the standard (preserving marginal notes the way they figure in original edition) established in en.wikisource. With my own attempts to keep the pages in the mainspace as small as possible (I am planning to break Chapter VII into paragraphs) and its archaic spelling, working on it is by no means easy. I do not know how to proceed with it, and I am glad if you give some direct recommendations (I do not know how automated tools could manage the sidenotes but your idea sounds great to me)
Karamzin's is the standard first book of Russian history... looks like Russia's distinct literature, philosophy, legal studies and historical narrative were all born around the same rule of Alexander I, embodied respectively by Pushkin, Chaadayev, Speransky, and Karamzin. Personally, I could never finish much of Karamzin, for his a bit archaic style (might be totally more impressive when translated) and ideology, though the volumes rest on a shelf somewhere behind me. I might take to Chaadayev however, his writings are way shorter.
Sorry my own style is terrible in this reply, I was in a hurry to answer. All the best, --Tar-ba-gan (talk) 23:50, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello again, Tar-ba-gan. Sorry it took me so long to get back, I keep getting sidetracked. I agree with what you said about the conversation manual - there's no point in undoing work that's already been done, but it would definitely be easier to make progress with the typeset version. — I've been thinking about Hakluytus, but it'll take a bit of research and experimenting to make any firm decision. Right now the finished pages are very faithful to the book layout, but I'm not sure the approach will give the best results when they're transcluded, which is important. The big problem for me is that when I look at the Page view, the text overlaps the image. But when I click edit and then preview the preview looks all right, although the side notes are much farther from the text than they need to be. So ... when I get down to working on it I might try copying the templates for the side notes and tweaking them to see if they can be made a little more manageable. I might also try stealing the sidenote templates they use on French wikisource and see if they're are as easy to use here. Another idea I had was to make dummy templates, that could either be set to do almost nothing (just leaving the notes inline with the rest of the paragraph, maybe coloring them), or else redirected to the templates currently used to make them proper side notes. Does that make sense? — Your Tibetan foothills book is impressive work. A problem character on this page looks like 扌敖. The printed character is obviously cobbled together, so the typesetters mustn't have had it in their font. I actually found that one, it's in extension B, which I don't know how to input, or whether many browsers would display properly. One thing you could do would be to use the tooltip template like this 扌敖刀, so the underline would be a clue that it's supposed to be a single character, and you can see the code when you hover the mouse over it. There's another, standard character 摮 that seems to have the same reading and meaning, so maybe you could even do this: 扌敖刀. Probably overkill ... — I have my issues with Karamzin too! Reading about Ivan the Terrible when he was living up to his name is very depressing. Other parts can be fairly tedious, especially when Nikolai Mikhailovich is making the same points time and again with his moralizing. But sometimes the narrative really gets lively and makes up for all that. Oddly enough, I think I enjoy the accounts of diplomacy the most, when the negotiations get tense and the sovereigns hurl finely calibrated insults and threats back and forth. — Sorry, I do go on. I've never really had the chance to talk about Karamzin to anyone. Anyway, talk to you later. Mudbringer (talk) 18:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Hi Mudbringer! Oh, please translate French sidenote templates into here, maybe as a "HP" (Hakluytus Posthumous) feature. In case someone does not appreciate the new templates, they are welcome to make slight amends later.
Karamzin was exactly a pre-Pushkin writer, which creates a stylistic problem for me. Pushkin crafted the backbone of Russian literary language, and while he was a fan of Karamzin (as a pioneering scholar and an intellectual), he was way more concentrated on language innovations, and a lot more liberal/republican in his views. I often use his line "with the gut of the last church minister/We will strangle the last king" to explain Russian Empire's problem with Masons that are otherwise ubiquitous in Republican settings.
Also, Pushkin tried to court Karamzin's wife, but the old folks treated him with laughter, like people who had seen way more. After all Pushkin created the reputation of reckless womaniser way before his literary reputation.
Pushkin, however, did write a clever epigram about Karamzin's History: "Exquisiteness of style, simplicity of words, / To us they prove, blind-folding all the bias / Unbounded rule is best, and should use / Advantages of whip" (you might wish to take this as a fairly good non-rhymed translation of the actual Pushkin lines and make the better of them)
May I ask you to take an interest in Wikiquote? Whether it is French or English, there seem to be lacunae. Say, Karamzin is entirely missing there in French, English, or any other Western European languages, and however backward his views may have been, the links of his Wikipedia article show that he was quite popular/up-to-date around the world in his time. I am not surprised as to absence of Karamzin's quotes (apart from 6 wikiquotes that are closer to Russia's core of education), but what about, say, Prosper Mérimée? I really care about him as a hard-working translator from the Russian. When it is just me doing a wikiquote page, it looks shameless (see q:Russian language for example). There are writers without a wikiquote French page: Alexander Pushkin, Nikolai Gogol, Ivan Turgenev, Mikhail Bulgakov, Boris_Pasternak, present in En wikiquote but a quote or two would look nice in Fr... Tar-ba-gan (talk) 23:17, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Index:Gospel of Buddha.djvuEdit

Done some attempted proofreading but would appreciate a second set of views especially on accented charcters as it's sometimes note clear what should be n̄ and what should be ñ. Thanks ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:06, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Will look into it carefully in a short while! I do not think these n's are essential, and ñ shall be all that is needed. Tar-ba-gan (talk) 23:28, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The Chinese Empire. A General & Missionary SurveyEdit

Please see this question when you have a moment. Outlier59 (talk) 00:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

If you are running a BOT, please make sure Wikisource users and Wikisource knows that you're running a BOT. If you're not running a BOT, please just ignore this comment.
While it was kind of you to send me multiple "Thank you" messages for my image uploads and edits to The Chinese Empire. A General & Missionary Survey, getting multiple alerts from you via Wikisource is rather intrusive on my time. You might want to consider using a brief thank-you note on my user page rather than multiple "Thank you" alert messages, or just sending one alert to indicate that you have seen and appreciate my edits.
I hope you make good progress on The Chinese Empire. A General & Missionary Survey. It's a good book. Outlier59 (talk) 01:41, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
I overdid it? Sorry. I know how it is sometimes very disturbing to get notifications from a wiki. I am not going to do that as much anymore. And no, I am not using a bot. Thanks a lot for all your help, it is great! --Tar-ba-gan (talk) 22:08, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Yep, I think you overdid it a bit, but I understand how thrilling it can be to get some hard-to-find help here in Wikisource.
I suggest you concentrate on doing what you can do well. Proofread and validate text -- especially text with Chinese characters. I can't do that, nor can most others on this English Wikisource. You have knowledge of two languages. I think you should USE this knowledge to add text to Wikisource. And don't worry too much about images and tables. Just proofread the page -- and if you come across an image or table problem in the page, just flag it for an image or table insert. Outlier59 (talk) 01:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Chinesische VolksmärchenEdit

Hello Tar-ba-gan, sorry, my English is bad, but i ask for an permanent English translation of our rules for the future. We have double proof reading. One important rule is, you have to proof read pages of other works 1:1 (if you have good OCR) or 1:2 (by hand transcription) before or at least beside to save time for the second proof readers. Also you work very slow and de-WS don´t like maybe year of incomplete projects. But we found in Web a professional high quality transcription fromärchen/M/Asien/Richard+Wilhelm%3A+Chinesische+Volksmärchen, maybe we can take this without new proof reading, so if we found an exact equal scan. This will save a lot of time for all on de-WS. I will tell you news in a few days. BR, Rumpelsteig (talk) 14:42, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Page:Myths and Legends of British North America.djvu/18Edit

Rather than use a lot of template calls, I would suggest checking out {{TOCstyle}} which lets you make one template call per page :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Single page example here - Page:Myths and Legends of British North America.djvu/19ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:49, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! Would I be able to create a page more in line with the original contents layout this way? BR, Tar-ba-gan (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Possibly you'd have to read the template documents carefully, currently you can't use {{ts}} short codes in TOCstyle though,

so you have to do a bit of cut and pasting if doing something complex or 'clever' .ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:58, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I was never good at using short codes, so right now I am sorry to say I will just follow inertia and do the same multiple template calls for the rest of the ToC. I will keep your advice in mind to try using it once I see a ToC that is not intricate. This should save me a lot of time. BR, -Tar-ba-gan (talk) 23:29, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


Please validate this page. I cannot. --Maury (talk) 01:22, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Tooltip with pinyin and simplifiedEdit


Regarding Index:Essays on the Chinese Language (1889).djvu, I have been removing your tooltips with pinyin transcription and simplified characters conversion, as I think they do not bring much value and I don't add them on the pages I proofread, it is too time consuming. I think it is more important to complete the transcription of the actual content first. However, I see that you are actively working on this text (great!). Are you OK with this strategy or do you want to keep the tooltips (I won't add them on the pages I proofread though)? Koxinga (talk) 21:08, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Please do keep the tooltips already present. A lot of the characters used, are not common today. I was very much trying to create a student-friendly version. I believe some of the tooltips are necessary - the Latinization used by the author is obsolete and not so very well understood, while I believe the author had a point when giving it. I agree though that my priority as well should be finishing the text as it is, not embellishing it with tooltips.
I have a long record of starting the project then leaving it unfinished for years. Thank you for a more systematic approach that actually gets things done. BR, --Tar-ba-gan (talk) 00:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
OK. let's do it this way. I think that such additions should be done once the main text is finished. Most of it can be automated, and you would just have to reread the text to check if any wrong conversion has been done, but it should 99% accurate. Koxinga (talk) 19:39, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
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