Index talk:The Book of Scottish Song.djvu

Recent changes

Standard formatting for this work

• Assume the song text is the standard size for text. Do not reduce the size of body text simply because the original printed with tiny letters.
• Transcribe pages as if they have a single column of text; do not format the page in columns.
• Separate songs with numbered section tagging, e.g. ## s2 ##, including also a section break (s1) at the beginning of each page.
• For headers of individual songs use the format: {{c|{{x-larger|{{blackletter|SongtitleHere.}}}}}}, which displays as:

Tullochgorum.

• Do not use special layout (such as line indents or margins) for the introductions of songs, but do format text with italics, small-caps, etc.
• Place song text inside {{block center}}, using {{block center/s}} and {{block center/e}} whenever a song continues across more than one page.
• Use <br /> at the end of each line within a song.
• Include <br /> on a separate line to mark blank lines between the stanzas of a song.
• Use {{nop}} after the <br /> when a stanza finishes at the end of a page (where a song continues across more than one page)
• Use {{gap}} to indent a line of poetry.

Incremental editing for new editors

This section offers a step-by-step plan for editing a page in this work, using page 58 as an example. Whether you are new to Wikisource, or simply new to editing poetry, I hope you be encouraged to assist with this month's collaboration.

Do not be afraid. This month's PotM is a long one, but the book consists of a sequence of songs, so you can begin editing at any page. The process below is also broken into three stages of work. If you wish to complete only Stage 1 for a page, that is fine—you have reduced the work needed on that page for other editors. If you wish to complete Stage 1 for a series of pages, and then to complete Stage 2 for those pages afterwards, that is also fine. The stages are designed to be largely independent of each other, so that you can proofread in smaller and less complicated steps, saving in between if you need to do so.

Before you edit: Look at the page that follows the one you plan to edit. In this example, the following page would be page 59, since we are looking at editing page 58. The only thing you need to know about the following page is whether it begins with lyrics. If it begins with a song title, or with prefatory remarks, then you need not worry. But if the following page begins with song lyrics, then it will affect the editing of your page. In this case, page 59 does not begin with lyrics.

Stage 1—Basic page layout

• Edit (create) the page you plan to work on. When you open the page, it will look like this. This is the OCR text that a computer "read" from the scan. It is full of errors, but that's OK.
• Fix the header by making two edits, one in the header window to remove the extra page number, and one in the main window of the edit page to remove the extra header text (it may not always be there to remove).
• Separate the sections of text. This involves marking sections for later inclusion in the final work, as well as inserting blank lines between stanzas or other sections of text to make editing easier.
  1. Mark off sections: Unfortunately, this step cannot be easily demonstrated in the linked example, because the Wiki software uses a shortcut that is converted into code when you save, but it is still simple. In the main window, place the text ## s1 ## all by itself on the first line. You may have to insert a line to do this. Place additional markers like this at the top of any other sections which begin on the page you are editing. Be sure they are numbered sequentially (s1, s2, s3, ...), but the numbering should start fresh on each page. Every page should have its first section as "s1"; the numbering is strictly for that one page of text, and does not have to correlate with any other pages. You should not put a section marker at the end of the page.
  2. Block center: If your page begins with lyrics of a song that started on the previous page, add {{block center/s}} on its own line in the header window, after the other header content. Place {{block center/e}} after the last line of the lyrics for that same poem. Likewise, if the last song on the page begins its lyrics on your current page, and those lyrics continue onto the next page (you checked this before starting, right?) Then place {{block center/s}} before the first line of lyrics, and {{block center/e}} on the first line of the footer window. Also, mark any songs that begin and end on the same page. For these songs, which appear entirely on a single page, you can use {{block center/s}} and {{block center/e}}, or you can simply use {{block center}} by adding {{block center| before the first line, and }} at the end of the last line of lyrics.
  3. Blank lines: Insert a blank line between stanzas, before or after prefatory notes, or anywhere there is a gap between lines on the scan image of the page you are editing.
  4. Horizontal rules: Songs appearing on the same page are separated visually by a short horizontal line. Add {{rule|4em}} following the last line of lyrics to generate this line. Be sure to include two blank lines ahead of the horizontal rule.
• Format the song titles. Replace the garbled song title line with the code {{c|{{x-larger|{{blackletter|SongTitle.}}}}}}, and insert the title of the song. If you cannot read the song title because it is in blackletter type, you can probably figure it out by looking in the prefatory notes on in the song lyrics. The title will usually appear in the song somewhere.
• Save your work, and you have finished Stage 1. Your page should now look something like this. The individual lines of songs run together, and there are still lots of typos, but the sections are laid out, the titles are formatted, and the blank lines make it possible to see the separate sections of text.

Stage 2—Proofreading the text

• Remove spaces from the end of each line of lyrics. [1] Doing this first makes the other steps go faster. The other steps in this stage may be done in sequence, but can also be done simultaneously with each other.
• Proofread the spelling. [2] Because the songs are typically written in spelling that reflect Scottish dialect, you cannot rely on automated spellcheck. Compare carefully against the scan image. If you are unsure about a word, try pronouncing out loud; some words in Scotland are spelled differently, but pronounced mostly like their counterparts in England.
• Proofread the spaces. [3] Remove extra spaces, especially before characters like ?, !, —, or ; and also insert spaces between words that have been run together.
• Proofread the punctuation. [4] In particular, a question mark (?) is often interpreted by the OCR as a one (1) and commas (,) are often interpreted as periods (.).
• Eliminate any other stray characters or punctuation. [5] Blots on the page, pencil marks in the book, or decorative borders are sometimes "read" by the OCR software as characters.
• Save your work, and you have finished Stage 2. Your page should now look something like this. The lines are still all wrapped together, but now all the words are spelled correctly, and the punctuation and spacing is correct, so it will be easier to read, even in this state.

Stage 3—Formatting the text

• Join the prefatory paragraph. [6] Remove line returns to join up the text of the prefatory remarks. Also, join hyphenated words across lines, and join lines of lyrics which wrapped to a new line because they were too long for the original column width.
• Small-caps. [7] Place any text written in Small Caps inside the template {{small-caps}} (or simply {{sc}} as a shortcut). This usually includes the first word (sometimes two) of each song; the first word (sometimes two) of the prefatory remarks; and the names of people given in the prefatory remarks.
• Centering. [8] Occasionally, a short line of text may be centered, such as a remark or stanza number. Use {{center}} (or simply {{c}} as a shortcut) to mark these.
• Line breaks. [9] Add the code <br /> at the end of every line of lyrics, except for the final line of a song. Also add <br /> on the blank lines between stanzas. If a stanza ends on the current page, and a new stanza of the same song begins on the next page, include a break for the last line of the page as well as another break on the next line.
• Line indents. [10] Add the code {{gap|1em}} at the front of every line of lyrics that is indented. The value "1em" is the standard amount by which most lines are indented. If a line is indented further, use {{gap|2em}}, {{gap|3em}}, etc.—keeping in mind that a 2em gap is but a single {{gap}}.
• Save your work, marking the page as "Proofread" before you do so, and you have finished Stage 3. The proofread page should look like this, with the page all laid out, and the text both proofread and formatted.

Validation

• This involves checking a page that was proofread by another editor. You cannot validate a page which you have proofread. While this usually involves less work, because the previous editor should have done all the hard work, you still should check through to ensure that each item in the three stages above was performed correctly. If everything checks out, then mark the page as "Validated" and save.

Discussion

As someone who is starting to edit Wikisource, this is really useful! One point: Could you add a bullet for when to change the page status to proofread? I assume it's after stage 3. Thanks, Samwalton9 (talk) 22:02, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Some of the formatting in Stage 3 is typically considered to be part of the proofreading process, especially as to line breaks, but there is not universal agreement on en-Wikisource about what must be done to consider a page as "proofread". And there is always the possibility that some who "proofread" the page simply overlooked something, such as italics or a comma. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:07, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Transclusion

See The Book of Scottish Song/Tullochgorum for an example of a transcluded song.

Table of Contents

• A Table of Contents is being built for this work. If you transclude a song and it does not render as a blue link at the TOC, check title spelling of Mainspace page or at the TOC. Londonjackbooks (talk) 16:42, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
• Note disambiguation titling:

  The Book of Scottish Song/Hooly and Fairly 1

  The Book of Scottish Song/Hooly and Fairly 2

Listen to it.

Tullochgorum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdc-oL6VjIc What is written music’s words without hearing them? Near to nothing in my opinion other than a form of poetry. —Maury (talk) 01:26, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Moving forward...

@EncycloPetey, @Nigmont, @Slowking4, @BD2412, @Jasonanaggie, @Dick Bos: As we get down to the business of proofreading, realistically, we have about 550 pages left to proofread. Let's say 5 of us are committed to seeing this PotM through to the end (with 19 days until the end of April). That means if each of five proofreads 6 pages per day, we can finish the work on time (not counting validation). It is my opinion that we need not necessarily validate at this time. It is a proofread of the month. Validation can occur at a later time (some November or whenever a contributor so desires). It takes me about 10-15 minutes to proofread a prepped page for this work, so I'm looking at at most 90 minutes/day dedicated to proofreading this PotM. I am also systematically going through page by page to make sure formatting is consistent.

On the note of consistency, some things to keep in mind:

• Breaks (as indicated above) are rendered as <br />
• Close up any added space between lines of text and breaks
• A 2em gap is but a {{gap}}
• Line breaks should be removed from intro text
• {{block center/s & /e}} are for songs that span more than one page. Use

  {{block center|

  closing the last line of song with }} for songs that appear on a single page. See this page as an example.
• Watch for full stops that should be commas

That's all I can think of at the moment. Always open to suggestions. Londonjackbooks (talk) 16:39, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan. -- Jasonanaggie (talk) 16:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Closing up spaces between line breaks and text sounds like something suited to the botting talents of BD2412.

I had intended myself at the outset to complete 2 pages on this selection each day, but outside requests have put me onto a different work here, and real life has taken the other time I would have spent on Wikisource. I may return to the BSS later in the week, but will probably not be able to commit to doing more than 2 proofread pages per day when that happens, and real life may prevent me from doing even that much this month. April and May are shaping up to be busy months for me.

One thought: Completing the work is great, but is not the sole, or even the primary, focus of PotM. We have had months where only a fraction of the selected work was proofread. True, we usually select a work that will be finished as well, but not every work has to be completed within a month. The goals of PotM also include (a) collaboration, (b) providing guidance/training to newer editors, (c) Bring in new editors. If we have collaborated, brought in new editors, or if some editors have picked up new skills, then we've had a success with PotM. --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:50, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

@EncycloPetey: Agreed. RL always throws those curve balls... And bringing in/guiding new contributors (and keeping them) is key. Thanks! Londonjackbooks (talk) 16:55, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

i will be adding br’s, but am otherwise occupied at WP with other drama, through the end of the month. Slowking4 ‽ SvG's revenge 17:01, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

I'll be doing some more work on this too, though probably not 6 pages a day. Sam Walton (talk) 20:13, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

I want to ask for not keeping the point about using {{block center| (when the poetry don't go across page borders) as mandatory; I prefer that using separate {{block center/s & /e}} would be allowed too (even for poetry works which don't go beyond their single page), at least at the stage 1 that is indicated here (at this page above — in the formatting conventions established for this book). Reasons are:

1) using {{block center/s & /e}} and {{block center| were initially designated in those conventions as equally acceptable, none of them was designated as preferable;

2) formatting in such a way allows me to make Stage 1 faster and with less strain, than while using {{block center|; also I should say that those kinds of formatting works, which are designated to be done during stage 1, are by itself not so interesting for common user as following stages (those which involve reading the lyrics itself, not only doing boring insertions of formatting stuff), therefore faster completing of those "boring" and "silly" kinds of work would save more time of other users for doing more interesting sort of proofread works which go after the stage 1;

3) if using {{block center| is really needed (at finally proofread text), then the pages may be subsequently processed by a bot, which will substitute {{block center/s & /e}} with {{block center| where it is really needed. I don't think that it's a great trouble for bot-owner to write a script for such a substitution. --Nigmont (talk) 21:30, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

@Nigmont: bc/s & /e were designed specifically to span multiple pages. Even though the templates work for a single-page poem, it is my belief that {{block center| "should" be used. I believe it to be the "correct" formatting for single-page poems. I will not enforce my belief, but I will make the change myself if/when I come across it. But, as usual, I defer to my betters where "shoulds" and "oughts" come into play here at WS. Thanks for all your page prepping! Londonjackbooks (talk) 21:49, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

@Londonjackbooks: thanks, so I still continue to use separate {{block center/s}} ... {{block center/e}} even for single-paged poetry works of this book; because this is for me just a matter of time consumed by this work, and also effort of being focused on too many various things during doing pre-formatting. And I don't object if you, during following clean-up and proofreading on those pages, would change to "{{block center| ... }}. --Nigmont (talk) 22:04, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

@Nigmont: Speaking for myself, I am fine with that! Londonjackbooks (talk) 22:06, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

I will not be able to do more than one or two pages a day. It just takes too much time. The quality of the OCR is so bad..... And if you have been working for 10 minutes, and then get an edit-conflict...... But I'll keep doin' my page a day. Apart from that, I don't think this is the kind of work that is well suited for training new editors. --Dick Bos (talk) 12:37, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

@Dick Bos: I placed {{In progress}} templates on the pages I was working on to avoid edit conflicts, although I met with 2 edit conflicts despite. No pressure—work at your leisure! Londonjackbooks (talk) 12:48, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Ok. That's clear. I wasn't used to these templates on wikisource. But now I understand. We'll keep going! --Dick Bos (talk) 13:12, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Londonjackbooks (talk) 13:21, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Pre-song remarks - centred?

The songs all have an introductory sentence or two regarding their origin. I'm seeing that centring these is being done in some places and not others, primarily in line with whether the text spans the page width or not. Should we centre all of them? We have validated pages with both - 76 is centred, 295 isn't, but it seems to me they should always be centred. Sam Walton (talk) 23:54, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

My thinking has been to "follow the brackets." It is evident that in some cases intros are centered. In other cases, bracket placement is a good indication if text should be standard [left]-aligned. When there is question, I tend to center. For all proofread and validated pages thus far, I have tried to follow that practice. I am open to discussion on this, however. Londonjackbooks (talk) 00:02, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Apostrophes in the black-letter headings

In my opinion, curly apostrophes (‘ and ’) in the black-lettered headings (songs' names) of this book should not be replaced with straight ones ('), as it is done e. g. by Londonjackbooks during the proofreading (e. g. this edit, ). I know that the rules of the English Wikisource prescribe, according to Wikisource:Style guide, section Formatting, p. 6 "Punctuation": to Use typewriter quotation marks (straight, not curly). And I am agreed with this rule in the case of usual, common text; but I think that the case of of black-lettered headings of old books should constitute an exception to this rule. If we are trying to reproduce ancient decorative formatting of headings (instead of just making them simply as bold and larger, and stopping on that) and apply "black-letter" pattern, then it is also reasonable to support punctuation's appearance close and similar to original appearance. I don't insist on that, I just think that it might be better, and that the rules should not be regarded as absolute and exceptions may be allowed to them... --Nigmont (talk) 20:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

 Comment I'll hold off checking proofread pages for consistency until there is agreement. But all proofread pages as of 27 April 13:19 have straight quotes. I don't know if a bot can run through pages affecting only blackletter headings and not song text. If so, no problem. If not, someone has to go page by page and make the changes. I may continue proofreading this work in months to come. Thanks for your work and attention to detail. Londonjackbooks (talk) 21:55, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me that for a bot there would be not a problem to process only headings and not to touch the rest of the text, since for this task a bot could merely search only text fragments included inside entries of {{blackletter}} template, and do substitutions in those fragments only. But I am not bot-owner and so I can not do firm claims on this matter, so comments of a bot owner are appreciated here, as I think. P. S. And @Londonjackbooks: I don't see any need for you to stop (if you wand to proceed). At least you may do the pages where there is not apostrophes in the headings at all (there are lots of such pages in this book); or else you may do all pages as before, and to do or not to do substitution — on your discretion, because most likely the problem could be solved with a bot. --Nigmont (talk) 22:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Stage 1 is over

Stage 1 is over now, I've passed the last pages required to complete it. Also, afaik br's are inserted (mostly by efforts of Slowking4) on every page and on (almost) every line where they are needed. Now participants may choose pages containing interesting for them examples of lyrics and do further proofreading; or merely proofread pages one by one. Hope that this book may be completed during May. I expect that I myself will also do proofreading this book, in the May (perhaps after taking some rest). --Nigmont (talk) 20:42, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Great work, really good work! This book is a doozy to tackle head on for native English speakers. I wonder if a book of this type with intentional misspellings would be easier for a person who knows English as a second language. -- Jasonanaggie (talk) 23:16, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I know nae what's come ower me,
⁠Nae mair to think in natife tongue.
Ha ha, I micht ha'e caught, says he,
⁠A wee bit bug frae Scottish song!

—Londonjackbooks

Yes. Thanks everyone for all the editing and prep work, and for any future contributions! :) Londonjackbooks (talk) 11:18, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Contributor field

If I were to put the authors of individual songs into the header's contributor field, would this be a welcome or unwelcome change to the project? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 16:33, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Reference in the Roud Folk Song Index

This (although not exactly this edition) is indexed as part of the w:Roud Folk Song Index, here: https://www.vwml.org/record/RoudBib/X5938 They have an 1845 and an 1844 copy. I'm not sure how this best should be represented in Wikidata. JesseW (talk) 15:38, 20 February 2022 (UTC)