User talk:Beleg Tâl/Archives/2015

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Beleg Tâl | Talk | Archives | 2015

Please do not post any new comments on this page. This is a discussion archive first created in 2015, although the comments contained were likely posted before and after this date. See current discussion or the archives index.

Image extraction

You said you might be willing to attempt image-extrcation from these.

• Index:The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 (uksi 19960341 en).pdf

(I'm still waiting for a response back concerning the status of an HSE document that has color versions of these.) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:11, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I would also appreciate image extraction from these, so that the dimensional details are included (currently some of the signs are shown as unidimensional SVG's based on COMMONS images and should ideally be replaced.)

• Index:UKSI19810859.pdf
• Index:UKSI_1985-0173.pdf

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:11, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I've got the 2nd edition with the identical images in colour. What is the copyright status on this work? I'll have a look at the other ones when I'm done this one. I'm no SVG expert though. I can make PNGs out of the scans.—Beleg Tâl (talk)

Well the 1994 regulations (from legislation.gov) are OGL. The HSE guidance I've not had a response about yet, sadly.

In terms of the traffic signs, PNG extracts would be fine. Making SVG for all of them would be a major task.. and would need the relevant (deprecated) working drawings which I don't have access to...

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:55, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

For the traffic signs, could we not do something like this:

⤒ 600 (750) (900) (1200) (1500) ⤓

—Beleg Tâl (talk) 23:04, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

It really does need the dimensioning from the original. Sorry. In places it's far too complex to do as tables. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

You may also be interested in these - http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Gallery:Defunct%20Traffic%20Signs&offset=0&max=48

(It should be possible to infer sensible details of these from the 2002 era working drawings.) You already made tweaked versions for 1981 era signs) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:38, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for doing the HSR stuff.

It would be nice to know if in respect of the 1996 vs 2009 images precisely where you got the alternates as they don't seem to appear in the 2nd edition guidance note PDF? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:40, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

They were pretty easy to make from the 2009 ones. One is just rotated 120 degrees, and the other is flipped horizontally and missing three objects. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 22:49, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifcation... was wanting to make sure it wasn't a specfic set of regulations that had changed the design.

I've put in a REFDESK query at English Wikipedia to try and track down a Table of Effects for this, to be sure there aren't obvious changes made before 2002 (after which I can track the changes very easily.) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

HSR Authors

Technically, the HSE only enforces, it doesn't as such 'write' the regulations, I changed the author to UK Government. The portal can stay. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:59, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Traffic Signs..

Index:UK Traffic Signs Manual - Chapter 3 Regulatory Signs. 2008 (Second Impression 2008).pdf

Any chance of doing some image work on this when you have some time? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:48, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Sure, shoulnd't be too hard to extract the embedded SVG files. It might take me a while though. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 15:48, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks , I uploaded Chapters 1, 3,4,5,7 and 8 Parts 1 and 2 on Commons. This is a long term project.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:39, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Curiosity

Please dismiss this post if you find it intrusive. I am curious about your username's origin, Is the name in any way related to Turkic languages? Being a person with an abiding interest in Onomastics is the only reason I ask. — Ineuw talk 18:30, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

It is Sindarin, a constructed language by Author:J. R. R. Tolkien: beleg = mighty; tâl = foot. From what I understand, Sindarin is modeled off the Celtic languages, primarily Welsh; as far as I know there is no connection to Turkish.

Out of similar curiosity, what is the origin of 'Ineuw'? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 18:42, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, the cat has revived. i + neuw a combination of the first letter of my first name and first 4 letters of my last name. But, I like "Beleg Tâl" better, it has a very exotic connotation. :-)

As for Celtic & Turkic, that would be an interesting combination because the Celts did settle in Galatia, which today is the center of Turkey, but before there was a Turkish entity, so this is more than somewhat far fetched. :-) — Ineuw talk 20:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Index:Book_of_common_prayer_(TEC,_1979).pdf

Before you ask... Sorry... Didn't realise you had on OCR version you were matching up :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:00, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

No problem; I just didn't want you or anyone else to put effort into it that would just be made redundant. :) —Beleg Tâl (talk) 11:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

And if you want to check them I've done some basic proofreading on the back of the book tables - Page:Book_of_common_prayer_(TEC,_1979).pdf/843 was were I did some basic cleanup from.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:28, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I will go through them and make sure that they are all formatted consistently etc. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 23:12, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Divorce versus Democracy

is now 2+4 pages short of being validated, if you are interested. Can't do them myself. Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 18:30, 2 July 2015 (UTC).

Done—Beleg Tâl (talk) 19:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Index:UK Traffic Signs Manual - Chapter 5 Road Markings. 2003 (Sixth Impression 2009).pdf

I've started added cross references... Any chance you could work from the back as I work from the front and it gets done very quickly?

The link style should be ovsious :) (And I was using for {{subst:cslink}} for the out of section links, you take something like 5.12 and put {{subst:cslink|5|12}} to create the link. For in section links you put

• [[#5.12|5.12]] for in-section paragraph links.
• [[#table5.12|5-12]] for tables
• [[#fig5.12|5-12]] for figures etc as appropriate to the text.

Thanks in advance you decide to participate, will be willing to explain my linking schema more if needed.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I did the indices. They were pretty easy with regular expressions in Notepad++; you might find them useful so I'll share them with you.

Find:

(\D)(\d{1,2})\.(\d+)

Replace:

\1{{subst:cslink|\2|\3}}

—Beleg Tâl (talk) 19:19, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Any chance you could have a look at the other chapter indicies? (Chapter 8 is slightly more complex, but a simmilar prinicple)ShakespeareFan00 (talk)

Index:Sheet Metal Drafting.djvu

The aritehmetic sums might need math tags, Thanks in advance? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:46, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Page:Probate and Legacy Duties Act 1808 (ukpga 18080149 en).pdf/58 and following

Can you take a look at this page and given the format continue formating for the rest of the work?

Not as mammoth a task as the BCP stuff.

Also I Did a very cursory formatting on the WWII pamphlet you put up this morning.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Three Sermons and Three Prayers

Aren't these in the collected works Susanrb was steaming away on? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:39, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know; I just split a work that had a split request tag on it. Besides, eventually Three Sermons and Three Prayers and the Complete Works will both be up and you can use a versions page for the individual collected works. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 01:38, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

The Army and Navy Hymnal/Hymns/Index of Authors and Translators

Hi, there! I have de-red-linked all authors, except Edward Bernard. I cannot find him credited anywhere the book (specifically not on p.19 of Orders of Worship). Let me know if you have any information. Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 02:38, 24 July 2015 (UTC).

I'm going through all of them (slowly) and making sure they're all credited; when I'm done I'll double-check them against the indices. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 11:49, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

I've noticed that you're redirecting names of tunes to works that are to be sung to that tune. This seems to me to be neither helpful nor meaningful, and is a misuse of redirections. These tunes were standard ones to which many hymns would be sung. At Hymnary.org for example, you can see another popular hymns for the Melrose tune. I would also be surprised if anyone came to Wikisource and typed in the word "Melrose" in order to find the hymn. Most folks today don't know the tune names. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:45, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean. "Melrose" is a work by Maker and I am listing it as such. If people don't know that Melrose is the name of the tune then they can ignore it, but if there end up being multiple versions of Melrose on Wikisource it will be able to be disambiguated correctly. If you think that I am misdirecting the hymn tunes to "works that are to be sung to that tune", you are very mistaken. I am taking great care to distinguish the two and I am only linking the hymn tune to pages that actually contain the sheet music. This is the reason I redirected "Melrose" to The Army and Navy Hymnal/Hymns/God Send Us Men Whose Aim 'Twill Be and not to God Send Us Men. The cause of the confusion is probably that most of these pages have {{missing score}} instead of the actual LilyPond markup, but that can be corrected later by people who have the patience and ability to do so. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 00:55, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Author:N. K. Bradford

Hi, there! What is the source for the move of the above? Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 22:17, 27 August 2015 (UTC).

Source is http://www.hymnary.org/text/o_tender_and_sweet_was_the_fathers_voice —Beleg Tâl (talk) 22:25, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

That sourse is no good, it's a mis-attribution there. Ellen Jane Knight Bradford (1839-1899) lived in Washington, DC and was married to James Henry Bradford, not to N. K. Bradford. I will revert your edits so that the mistake is not propagated to wikidata and further. Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 23:23, 27 August 2015 (UTC).

The original publication lists the author as Ellen K. Bradford. Since N is a common abbreviation for Ellen (Nellie), like B for Elizabeth (Bess, Beth, etc.) I would assume that N. K. refers to Ellen herself and not her husband (or else it is an error in this particular hymnal, which would not be the first). It is entirely possible that she moved from Masachussets to Washington. Do you have any stronger evidence that this is a misattribution? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 11:46, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Found another source: Herringshaw's Encyclopedia of American Biography of the Nineteenth Century[1] by Thomas William Herringshaw:

BRADFORD, ELLEN KNIGHT, author, poet, was born in Ypsilanti, Mich. Among the best known of her poems are the hymn Over the Line; Wearing of the Blue; Elberon; Centennial; and Songs of Real Children

—Beleg Tâl (talk) 11:57, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Also, the Geni record you linked to says that she was married in East Hampton, Massachussets, which is less than 50km from Palmer. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 21:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Excellent research! and the evidence is conclusive. Would be great if you add some of these sources to the talk page. Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 23:25, 28 August 2015 (UTC).

Pseudo-Clementine literature

Hi, there. Please have a look at the documentation for template version. A versions page is a page listing different versions of essentially the same work, its intended use basically for instances of the same work published in the different places. One can choose between disambiguation and translations templates, but versions is absolutely inappropriate here. Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 23:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC).

I disagree, but I'm sure you know best. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Clarence Alphonsus Walworth

What's the source of life span (1831–1905) for the subject? If he is in fact this chap, then, interestingly, many source disagree about his second name: w:Clarence A. Walworth, NYT obit, and linked viaf record. Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 00:40, 25 October 2015 (UTC).

I really don't remember where I got that from. I may have even accidentally used someone else's span. I've fixed it now. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:33, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Lena Gilbert Ford

All sources I can find (including book itself and Library of Congress) give her second name name as Guilbert. What sources prompted you to move the page? Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 00:53, 30 October 2015 (UTC).

Wikipedia.

• "Lena Gilbert Brown Ford (1870 – March 7, 1918) was a lyricist, best known for "Keep the Home Fires Burning" which she wrote during the First World War. She was born Lena Gilbert Brown…"
• "Keep the Home-Fires Burning ('Till the Boys Come Home) is a British patriotic First World War song composed in 1914 by Ivor Novello with words by Lena Gilbert Ford (whose middle name was sometimes printed as "Guilbert")..<ref>Pegler, Martin, ''Soldiers' Songs and Slang of the Great War'', Osprey Publishing, 2014, ISBN 9781427804150, page 248.</ref>"

It is, of course, possible that Wikipedia is wrong, and that Gilbert should link to Guilbert and not the other way around.—Beleg Tâl (talk) 01:51, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course, I can see wikipedia articles but they not much of help here, they are self-contradictory. Notice that the article title and the sheet music cover (used as illustration in both articles use Guilbert. Also notice several obituaries: [2], [3]. I will move the page, then. Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 06:02, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I'll make the relevant updates on Wikipedia. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 13:12, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Author:Shem

Hi, there! Could you please point me to the source(s) that attributes works to Shem. As you notice, the pages are not deleted but moved to portals for "authors" with no works. Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 23:44, 2 November 2015 (UTC).

They are listed on the page now. There is already discussion on the subject at Wikisource:Proposed deletions#Biblical figures who are not authors. See also http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/treatiseshem.html —Beleg Tâl (talk) 23:46, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, Paraphrase" is not attributed to Shem at all, as for "Treatise", see entry by Reimund Leicht in "The Encyclopedia of Ancient History" (2012). In any case, it is fine for both of them to be listed on Shem's page; it might be useful to arguments related to the deletion. And as you correctly state, there is on-going discussion about it. But this discussion is orthogonal to a move of Mr. Shem's page to portal namespace, the move is made because Mr Shem is not "author with works" according to wikisource convention. Or, to put it slightly differently: deletion question is about notability of Mr.Sham, independent of that is the question of the relevant namespace. Cheers, Captain Nemo (talk) 00:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC).

The general impression I have received in these discussions is that, if a work is popularly attributed to a person, as is the case for pretty well every member of Category:Biblical figures, then they are kept as an author with those attributions as works, but of course a note that scholarship contradicts the attribution is in order. Thus, the traditional atribution of the Paraphrase and the Treatise (and yes, the Paraphrase is attributed to him, see [4]).

I apologise for reverting your edits without discussing with you further first. However, I had already begun looking into the matter, and I created the proposed deletion request only because I was not aware of the convention to move to the Portal namespace at the time, and as you can see the discussion is revolving around the fact that they are authors, not that they are notable. Ultimately with these Biblical figures, it looks like the correct way to proceed is to only remove them from Author space if you can definitively confirm that there do not exist any works attributed to them, such as is the case with Linus. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

\scriptstyle{} usage within <math> tags

Hi. I noticed you (fairly recently) made a bulk change (e.g. Game of Logic.djvu/67) removing this usage. May I inquire as to your reasoning as I have probably been guilty of inserting this very construct into many pages on the (then) reasoning that it gave more consistent rendering under several browsers than did the raw default. Mind you there have been at least two entire typography overhauls since I started doing this (originally for example <math>\text{this}</math> rendered about the same as {{larger|this}}; and <math>\scriptstyle{\text{this}}</math> more closely approximated normal text; but nowadays the former is still true but the latter renders smaller than normal…at least on my installation of Firefox—you just cannot win!) and maybe you consider the the base issue has "gone away" on your particular browser? If you support this position I shall stop the practice (as it really is a pain in any case) but I would nevertheless appreciate seeing your reasoning in any case. AuFCL (talk) 07:37, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I posted my reasoning several months ago at Index talk:Carroll - Game of Logic.djvu. I would not have made this edit if I had not been the only person working on that transcription project in a long time. The primary reasons are as follows:

• PNG rendering is essentially a stop-gap until MathML is more universally implemented; the PNG rendering of scriptstyled text appears marginally better than non-scriptstyled, but the MathML rendering is far worse. Since MathML is part of HTML5, this will be implemented in all compliant browsers eventually. Thus, by making this edit, I am future-proofing the text.
• In LaTeX, the \scriptstyle declaration is intended to format the text as a script (either a subscript or a superscript), and since this is not the intended purpose of the variables in the text, I believe that using this declaration is poor syntax. Since LaTeX (and MathML) are intended to markup the semantics of the expression rather than the presentation of the equation, I think that we should simply markup the semantics and let the browser do as it will, even if it doesn't look as good as we would like.

That's my reasoning, and I do think that when using a semantical markup language like LaTeX you should stick to the defaults, because the rendering will change depending on the implementation of the rendering engine, and ultimately browsers and MediaWiki plugins will be able to handle it appropriately. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. All good points. I don't know how I missed the talk page (I thought I had looked but clearly not!) Ironically I was initially steered towards using scriptstyle way back by enWP based entirely upon a presentational argument. Until you just pointed out the obvious I was unaware of the semantic implications so a special thanks for pointing that out. AuFCL (talk) 20:39, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Pardon stirring up an "old" issue: On occasion I have encountered mathematical expressions inside {{smaller}} etc. blocks and had previously been inclined to utilise \scriptscriptstyle to achieve size reduction. Bearing in mind your earlier remarks regarding semantic implications are you aware of a more legitimate fashion of achieving this sort of effect; or should I be resorting to the more brutal img-sizing approach? Your thoughts appreciated. AuFCL (talk) 22:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I think that in normal LaTeX you can use the \small declaration for this, but I don't think MediaWiki supports that. Honestly I would put it inside {{smaller}} or a similar template. If the MathML looks good, I let the PNG rendering do whatever it feels like doing. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 19:09, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

It just occurred to me we were looking from quite different perspectives: you are clearly a MathML fan and I have found something bites me every time I venture outside of the render-as-PNG fold. {{smaller}} does not touch the latter as evidenced by:

My doesn't introducing \small cause some interesting errors...which vary by mode as well!

So in short things are still a chaotic mess.. Please don't be insulted when I state I'm sticking to PNG rendering until a bit more uniformity sneaks in. AuFCL (talk) 22:42, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. MathML is the standard across the web, so I'll stick with that. It is my opinion that PNG is a stop-gap solution to the fact that MathML is not yet fully implemented across the board, so I don't expect it to behave properly, and I don't mind when it doesn't.

Singers' portals vs. as authors

Hello and thank you for reviewing my newly created pages. If I may say so, I find it a bit strange to include the two castratos Author:Farinelli and Author:Senesino in the authors' section, whereas for Portal:Margherita Durastanti you opened up a portal page. Similarly, I find it strange to talk of singers as of authors and/or to include arias they sang as if they were works BY them. They interpreted the text written by some librettist on the music written by some composer and did something in their own by creating their own interpretation in the repetition of part A in the da capo arias, but for me this does not make them authors (neither in general, nor of any aria). Of course one could include famous arias they sung, but I doubt that the ENGLISH wikisource would be the right place for that. This could be done in the wikipedia entry (after discussing the roles they interpreted for instance). The text of the arias for castratos will be exclusively in Italian, and hence their text might not be correctly placed here. But I would leave that to a general discussion. In any case, I would follow one and the same principle for all singers then, not treat castratos as authors and sopranos / females as portals. Tell me what you think.--Haendelfan (talk) 23:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

@Haendelfan: The secret is this: an Author page is for individual people who wrote works, and a Portal page is for everything else, including people who didn't write anything. Farinelli did write songs, and all the songs I listed on his page were actually written by him, and not just sung by him. Durastani definitely didn't write any works, at least not that anyone knows about, so she gets a Portal page. I don't know whether Senesino wrote anything or not. Probably he didn't, and if not his page should be made into a Portal. However, we would need to do more research to find out for sure. I made his page an Author page because I thought he had probably written something, maybe a song or a letter, but when I looked him up afterwards I couldn't find any.

Now, with regards to English vs. Italian: yes, absolutely only English works get hosted on English Wikisource. This means that the only works of Farinelli that will be hosted here are translations of the songs that he wrote. If there are already public-domain translations, then we can host them here. If not, we can translate them ourselves, or we can just leave it as a list of titles the way it is right now. His original songs will need to be hosted on the Italian Wikisource.

I don't think it makes sense to list the songs sung by a given person. A given singer would have sung thousands of songs, and how would you even know what songs they sung? Maybe for some singers this could be important. Maybe we would also want to list the songs that were written specifically for the singer. I don't know. In either case, these lists would be made as a section on their Author (or Portal) page, between the "Works by" and "Works about" sections. —Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:39, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Index:Theraccoltaorcol00unknuoft.djvu

With a little digging I found the compilers :) .

Primarily: Ambrose St. John (1815 – 24 May 1875), Edmund Surmont ( - 1932), Henry S. Bowden ( ? - ? ), R.G.B noted in the preface and the short Aprobation by Al. BArnado.(which seems to be a not quite PD-release :) ) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguate authors by years of life

Hi. With our author pages, when we disambiguate we use the years of life (xxxx-yyyy) or (d. yyyy) as the prefix, not by title or occupation. Too many father/sons doing the same thing, and often they all writers and have no relationship. Would you mind moving the pope disambiguation pages to that style. Thanks. — billinghurst sDrewth 09:50, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Sure - I only did it that way because the popes that had been disambiguated already were done that way. I'll fix them too.

Should I fix the kings that are disambiguated as "of Russia" or "of England" as well? And further, those who are disambiguated using common epithets like "James the Just", "John the Evangelist", "Paul of Tarsus", etc? —Beleg Tâl (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2015 (UTC)